﻿﻿ MatPlus.Net

Website founded by
Milan Velimirović
in 2006

22:47 UTC
 ISC 2024

Remember me

 CHESS SOLVINGTournamentsRating lists1-Jul-2024
 B P C F

MatPlus.Net Forum General en passant captures in Take & Make

Page: [Previous] [Next] 1 2

### en passant captures in Take & Make

Perhaps the rule is contained in Petko's recent article, but if so, it has eluded me.

scheme:
(= 3+2 )

h#1?! (3+2)
Take & Make

the idea being: 1.b7-b5 ...cxb6ep-b4# ?!

Popeye doesn't agree, but neither does popeye allow white to "Make" any move after an en passant "Take" (which makes little sense).

Actually, popeye seems to allow white to "make" a move -- 1...cxb6ep-b5 !? -- though it is not notated as such...
Is this really the intended treatment?

The 'make' move is based on the move possibilities of the piece that's captured on the square that it is captured, not based on the last move of the captured piece.

I guess Kevin thinks that since the pawn was captured on b5, the white pawn can go to b4.

Agreed, Joost... but, the bP is captured on b5, by a wP which goes to b6... so, can it play b5-b4#, or b6-b5?

I favor the former rule, in which case popeye seems to have it wrong.
On the other hand, I cannot deny the latter rule has a certain logic behind it:

1) black moves b7-b5,
2) in order to capture en passant, white first moves the bP back to b6, then "Takes" on b6, and "Makes" from b6 to b5.

This goes against the standard for circe forms, of course...
And, for that reason, I would prefer the former rule.
I'd also have favored the Make moves be treated as a circe rebirth (allowing castling, both for reborn Kings and Rooks).

@Siegfried,

I'm just asking what the rule is... and, the best way to ask is always with a diagram.

...
Another question which goes unanswered in Petko's article...
In T&M "type Dupont," what are the rules for pawns on the 1st rank?
Do they follow PWC rules (dummies), Parrain Circe rules (single step + capture), Einstein rules (single-, double-, and triple-steps + capture), or Circe Cage rules (single- and double-steps + capture, I think)...

Unfortunately, there is no standard treatment for pawns reborn onto their 1st rank (and there may be some disagreement about Equipollents Circe -- which either follows PWC or Parrain rules, as far as I can tell).

I think the logic you understand now is correct. Treat the pawn as captured on b6.

Siegfried,

Is it stated somewhere this is the rule?
I will not treat it as such, merely based upon popeye's present interpretation (which may well be incorrect).
Considering that popeye does not show white "Make" a move, after en passant capture, I submit it is highly likely that this case was not treated.

And, note that popeye's present logic goes against the circe standard:
In Equipollents Circe, and Parrain Circe (and other forms), the captured pawn is reborn from b5, not from b6.

Consider the following:

Scheme:
(= 4+2 )

Take & Make + Circe Parrain
h#1 [1 or 2 solutions?]

Clearly, 1.b6 ...cxb6-b5# solves... but, what about 1.b5 ...cxb6ep-b5#?
Popeye says no -- black can escape check in three ways, by rebirth: 2.Kb6[+bPc5], 2.Ka7[+bPb6], and 2.Kxb5-b6[+bPc5]
Following all three moves, the bP blocks check from the wBg1, and since checks are evaluated after the move is complete (including all rebirths), this cannot be considered mate.

But, if popeye's logic were correct, and the bP was captured on b6 (not b5) -- how then may the bP be reborn from b5 onto c5?
Following popeye's logic, it follows that the bP should be reborn from b6 (to either c6 or b7) -- which leaves all three escape-by-rebirth continuations illegal (thus, two solutions to this helpmate in 1).

This demonstrates clearly how Take & Make's logic breaks down -- such a rule is inconsistent with the standard of all other Circe forms.

In my opinion, T&M is simply another form of AntiCirce, with slightly modified rules for rebirth.
It should follow those (long established) standards (that goes for en passant, castling, and pawns on the first rank).

'Square on which the black piece is captured' and 'square on which the white piece starts its make-move' don't have to be the same necessarily. It usually is, but in cases like locust/marine captures or en passant, the two are different. A white 'make' move is started from the square the white piece is on after the capture, and follows the move-type of the captured black piece (I don't know how this make-move is defined when a locust-family piece is captured, by the way).

Another (different) discussion could be whether the Parrain-rebirth should follow the take move, or the take&make move.

@Joost,

>A white 'make' move is started from the square the white piece is on after the capture, and follows the move-type of the captured black piece (I don't know how this make-move is defined when a locust-family piece is captured, by the way).

Ahh. Thank you -- this does clarify the intended rules (though, I find their inconsistency to be remarkably unfortunate).

>Another (different) discussion could be whether the Parrain-rebirth should follow the take move, or the take&make move.

The rules of rebirth are well established for all circe forms, parrain included.
However, if you have an argument against these established rules, by all means, feel free to make it here.

I find it unfortunate that Take&Make, which is really only an AntiCirce form (of type Take&Make), does not remain consistent with the established norms [regardless what the accepted norms are, T&M should be subject to them]

I therefore submit that Take & Make "Type Dupont" should be treated entirely as a form of AntiCirce (making it consistent with en passant rules, castling rules, and some set of rules for pawns on the 1st rank).

I'm certainly open to discussing whether the established norms, in circe forms, are lacking.
For starters, I consider the many treatments for pawns reborn onto the 1st rank to be a serious flaw -- there should be one consistent rule, which all circe forms follow (in fact, I believe Einstein should also adhere to such a standard).
It is a shame that new circe forms, such as circe cage, continue to be invented, which expand these inconsistencies.
In my opinion, circe parrain has the best rules for pawns reborn onto their 1st rank (that is: single-step + capturing).

I am well aware that this will have an impact upon many existing problems -- including several of my own!
Nevertheless, a consistent codex for fairy rules would serve the fairy genre well.
And, those problems can easily be preserved, based upon the rules under which they were originally crafted.

QUOTE

"Type Dupont"

What is this? T&M was 'invented' by Hartmut Laue, so what is different in 'Type Dupont' compared to the original definition?

Whether T&M is different from Anticirce is dependant on whether you see the make-part of the move as a continuation of the take-move, or as a type of rebirth. I personally see it as a continuation, which (a.o.) implies that it's a piece that has moved (and therefore has no castling-rights).

Joost,

See Mat Plus Review, Spring/Summer 2010.
Refer to Petko's article, which is responsible for naming Take & Make "type Dupont" (where pawns are allowed to rebirth onto their 1st rank).
I am merely suggesting a more specific set of rules for what Petko calls, "type Dupont."
Frankly, I much prefer the title: "AntiCirce T&M."

>(I don't know how this make-move is defined when a locust-family piece is captured, by the way).

Petko's article deals with this very question, as well.
It is (genreally) strictly illegal to capture a locust-family unit, in Take & Make.
Same goes for dummies, and other units which are restricted to capturing moves.

Petko's article also deals with Take&Make in conjunction with a number of circe forms.
But, it may have missed entirely this en passant dilemma -- nor does it address Take&Make's correlation to the AntiCirce form.

>Whether T&M is different from Anticirce is dependant on whether you see the make-part of the move as a continuation of the take-move, or as a type of rebirth.

It may look like a different type of tree, when you look at its specific rules; but, I see this fairy condition nestled in the AntiCirce forest.
This is not uncommon -- the inventor of PWC refused to accept that his fairy invention was a form of Circe, with modified rules for rebirth.
Today, we know it better as Platzwechsel Circe, or Circe Exchange.
Unfortunately, PWC's treatment of pawns reborn onto the 1st rank remains inconsistent with other Circe forms.

Someday, I hope, PCCC will commission a group (made up of programmers, fairy theorists, and respected variant gamers) to make a consistent Fairy Codex...
And, only the forms PCCC accepts will be allowed into international composing & solving competitions.
Thus, fairy inventors will be encouraged to seek PCCC approval -- the present system (chaos) has too long disregarded precedents, and standards.

Someday, it may not be required to provide (or remember!) a multitude of specific, inconsistent rules...
Until that fine day arrives, I don't see how T.R.Dawson can be entirely happy about his legacy.

I think that "en passant" is a pawn-capture, in the exemple a white c5 capture, and from this square (c5) only two a captures are possible 1.c5xb6 or 1.c5xd6

The "Type Dupont" history is not exactly what has been reported here. When I heard that Paul Raican was organizing a retro tourney on Take & Make for Quartz, I began working with pawns on first or last rows, without knowing that it was forbidden in the original definition. Once I have submitted such an entry, Paul told me "it doesn't matter, we just have to call "Type Dupont" this Take & Make variation". I agreed and, as a matter of fact, obtained the first prize with an entry showing the last row full of black pawns...

Thanks for that correction Nicolas.
And, congratulations on your fine proofgame!

In this "Type Dupont," what exactly are the rules for pawns reborn onto the 1st rank?
Do they behave like PWC, Parrain Circe, Einstein, Circe Cage, or something different?

And, would you please comment on the idea of "Anticirce Take&Make" (as a possible alternative to "Type Dupont")...
Would this impact any of the "Type Dupont" problems you (or others) have already composed?
[The only difference I see is that castling would be possible upon "rebirth" (if we chose to accept this as a rebirth), and it might impact en passant captures...]

Do you think these expanded castling opportunities might be worthwhile (setting it more apart from standard T&M)?

Dear Kevin,

I must confess that I was very naive while introducing « Type Dupont ». Indeed I thought the moves rules of a white pawn on first rank was already clearly established, and universal. Hence I didn’t try to specify them.

It was only when, together with Etienne, we wrote our circé cage article, that we realized those rules wasn’t always the same, mainly depending on the fairy genre under consideration.

We thus asked some experts to indicate us what are their own feelings. The answers were quite various, but a majority preferred the one we therefore have chosen : only single step (capturing move is allowed) and then the pawn becomes ordinary.

I’m not enough competent to known if those rules may conflict or not with other fairy genre (neither to have a right viewpoint about anti-circé T&M). What I’m sure is that it is consistent with the rest of circé cage rules, and probably with the classical T&M too. Hence, if it is my charge to specify “Type Dupont”, I would say that the pawns rules go as above.

Best,

Nicolas.

Nicolas,

>"We thus asked some experts to indicate us what are their own feelings. The answers were quite various, but a majority preferred the one we therefore have chosen : only single step (capturing move is allowed) and then the pawn becomes ordinary."

Thank you for the clarification.
For what it is worth, I too consider these rules to be the best way to govern pawns on their 1st rank (as in Circe Parrain).

On a side note: Let's hope nobody will write "AntiCirce type Laue type Dupont" for this T&M, or the confusion is perfect!

Pawns on 1st/8th rank were clearly not allowed in Hartmut's definition of Take & Make.
So this is something other now, may be "Dupont chess".

A think that "T&M type Dupont" is better, to specify that pawns are allowed in first or last rows. For example, in "Anticircé",
captures on rebirth square are not allowed. If they are allowed, this is "Anticircé type Calvet".

QUOTE
Mat Plus Review, Spring/Summer 2010

On p. 32, Petko Petkov writes that I programmed Take&Make for Popeye (the statement is illustrated by a picture of me in a Scotch Whisky distillery). In fact, it is Stephen Emmerson who programmed Take&Make. [I'll keep the whisky, though.]

Milan: could you place a correction in the next Mat Plus 15? Thanks!

@Nicolas,

QUOTE
(I?) think that "T&M type Dupont" is better, to specify that pawns are allowed in first or last rows. For example, in "Anticircé",
captures on rebirth square are not allowed. If they are allowed, this is "Anticircé type Calvet".

I suspect perhaps you misunderstand my suggestion... or else, I must be misreading your above quote...

My suggestion is to replace "T&M Type Dupont" with "Anticirce Type T&M."
Essentially, the difference is, rather than have a version of T&M which only allows pawns on their first ranks, instead we can have the capturing unit be reborn as in a form of anticirce!
This way, capturing with reborn Kings/Rooks becomes possible, too (along with pawns being "reborn" onto their 1st ranks).

This would be a new form of anticirce -- but, the rebirth of the capturing unit would simply be based upon the choice of some move from the captured piece (if there is no such move, the capture is illegal).

I am making an educated guess that all "T&M Type Dupont" problems (currently composed) would probably remain sound as "Anticirce T&M."

By the way, there can be a normal circe form of T&M, too.

Circe T&M -- captured units are reborn according to a choice of some legal move from the capturing unit. The capturing side would have the option to decide. Pawns reborn onto their 8th ranks are instantly promoted. Pawns reborn onto their 1st ranks would follow the same rules as "Anticirce T&M" (which follows the rules of T&M Type Dupont).