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MatPlus.Net Forum General Neutral Kings : royal or non-royal ?
 
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(1) Posted by Kevin Begley [Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:21]

Neutral Kings : royal or non-royal ?


Popeye seems to default to neutral Kings being non-royal units, whereas Win Chloe considers them royal.
I'm not so concerned about which is the correct default interpretation (though, I tend to favor Win Chloe's logic in this instance), but whereas Win Chloe will allow me to create a non-royal neutral King, I don't see how to make popeye accept a royal neutral King. If this is possible, can somebody please explain how this can be achieved, and what are the limitations?
(I would much appreciate any help here -- what popeye might verify in hours, Win Chloe sometimes cannot crack after many days).

Also, what if there are two (or more) neutral royal Kings present, plus perhaps a white and/or black King, this does lead to more questions:

1) if the aim is help-mate, must I mate the black King? Can I mate a neutral King? Must I mate ALL neutral Kings + black King?
2) what if help-mate with no black King, but several neutral Kings present?
3) what if the above scenarios + Rex-Multiplex?
4) are King promotions (neutral and/or otherwise?) an implicit possibility, when more than one King (per "player") is present?

Thanks in advance for any help / clarification...
 
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(2) Posted by Juraj Lörinc [Wednesday, May 13, 2009 14:01]

I have just tried Popeye (using Fancy front-end) and it treated neutral king as royal piece. E.g. input...

====================
BeginProblem
Origin Unknown
Stipulation #3
Protocol C:Documents and SettingsPCMy DocumentsKSPopeyeFancypy.txt
Pieces
White Qf4 Sg4
Neutral Kg2
Option NoBoard
EndProblem
====================

... have produced the following output:

====================
Popeye Windows-32Bit v4.45 (4 MB)
1.Sg4-e3 + !


solution finished. Time = 0.015 s
====================

Regarding your multiple kings question, I can only state my opinion as it is (as usually) a matter of convention.

And it is in my view precisely the convention you choose for treatment of mutiple kings. You should not have the diagram with multiple kings belonging to the side (either normal or neutral) without stipulating the treatment of pecularities connected to their presence.

I.e. you should either state Rex Multiplex (multiple kings have to be mated simultaneously) or Siamese Kings (any position with any king checked is a check and check that cannot be parried is a mate) or any other.

Therefore I would approach your questions as follows:

> 1) if the aim is help-mate, must I mate the black King? Can I mate a neutral King? Must I mate ALL neutral Kings + black King?

Neutral king should be with side to move treated as one of their own kings. With the convention defined.

> 2) what if help-mate with no black King, but several neutral Kings present?

The same.

> 3) what if the above scenarios + Rex-Multiplex?

This states the convention and the answer to both questions becomes "all simultaneously".

> 4) are King promotions (neutral and/or otherwise?) an implicit possibility, when more than one King (per "player") is present?

For me personally yes, but again it is a matter of convention, nevertheless, I suppose yes.
 
 
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(3) Posted by Joost de Heer [Wednesday, May 13, 2009 14:23]

King promotions are only allowed in genres that allow it, like Rex Multiplex. With e.g. siamese kings, king promotions aren't allowed. Popeye ignores 'k' in 'Promonly' by the way, king promotions are, as far as I know, always impossible in Popeye.

If you want a non-royal king in Popeye, use the erlking. Popeye should probably refuse the problem if multiple kings on one side (e.g. black and neutral king) are present, you should enter that as a feature request in Sourceforge.
 
   
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(4) Posted by Kevin Begley [Wednesday, May 13, 2009 15:34]

Thanks for the fast reply...

Hmm, so you're telling me that popeye *DOES* recognize neutral Kings as Royal?
Well, I hadn't checked my assumption carefully, but upon further review, you seem to be halfway correct!

for example:

beg
protocol test.txt
option nowk
option nobK
pieces white Pb2 black Pg7 neutral Kh4
stip h~1
end

Does give 1.g7-g5 + (yes, it says check, wow!), but popeye allows white to follow with 1...b2-b4 (or 1...b2-b3).
I don't understand this logic -- note that Win Chloe will NOT allow 1...b2-b4 after 1.g7-g5+ is played (why would popeye allow this?).

Furthermore, if I add neutral Ka5, popeye gives the following error: "input-error:only one king allowed"

Can I have two (or more) royal nKings in popeye w/o specifying rex-multiplex, because I don't think I want rex-multiplex...
I'm not sure if rex-multiplex implies that ALL kings must be mated (?), or maybe there is a King promotion issue (?), but whatever the reason, I just want a few neutral Kings, where only ONE of them need be mated, I don't want King promotions, and I don't want moves like 1...b2-b4 to be considered legal after something like 1.g7-g5+.
 
   
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(5) Posted by Joost de Heer [Wednesday, May 13, 2009 15:48]

Popeye doesn't know Siamese kings. So multiple kings of the same colour aren't allowed.

About g7-g5 b2-b4: With the CVS version this isn't a solution anymore, so it looks like a fixed bug:

BeginProblem
Author Unknown
Origin Unknown
Protocol C:appsschakenFancypy.txt
Pieces
White Pb2
Black Pg7
Neutral Kh4
Stipulation h~1
Option Variation NoBoard
EndProblem

Popeye Windows-32Bit v20090427.48 (4 MB)
1.nKh4-h5 nKh5-g5
1.nKh4-h5 nKh5-h4
1.nKh4-h5 nKh5-g6
1.nKh4-h5 nKh5-g4
1.nKh4-h5 b2-b4
1.nKh4-h5 b2-b3
1.nKh4-g4 nKg4-h4
1.nKh4-g4 nKg4-g5
1.nKh4-g4 nKg4-f4
1.nKh4-g4 nKg4-g3
1.nKh4-g4 nKg4-f5
1.nKh4-g4 nKg4-h5
1.nKh4-g4 nKg4-h3
1.nKh4-g4 nKg4-f3
1.nKh4-g4 b2-b4
1.nKh4-g4 b2-b3
1.nKh4-h3 nKh3-h4
1.nKh4-h3 nKh3-g3
1.nKh4-h3 nKh3-h2
1.nKh4-h3 nKh3-g4
1.nKh4-h3 nKh3-g2
1.nKh4-h3 b2-b4
1.nKh4-h3 b2-b3
1.nKh4-g5 nKg5-h5
1.nKh4-g5 nKg5-g6
1.nKh4-g5 nKg5-f5
1.nKh4-g5 nKg5-g4
1.nKh4-g5 nKg5-h4
1.nKh4-g5 nKg5-f4
1.nKh4-g5 b2-b4
1.nKh4-g5 b2-b3
1.nKh4-g3 nKg3-h3
1.nKh4-g3 nKg3-g4
1.nKh4-g3 nKg3-f3
1.nKh4-g3 nKg3-g2
1.nKh4-g3 nKg3-f4
1.nKh4-g3 nKg3-h4
1.nKh4-g3 nKg3-h2
1.nKh4-g3 nKg3-f2
1.nKh4-g3 b2-b4
1.nKh4-g3 b2-b3
1.g7-g5 + nKh4-h5
1.g7-g5 + nKh4-g4
1.g7-g5 + nKh4-h3
1.g7-g5 + nKh4*g5
1.g7-g5 + nKh4-g3
1.g7-g6 nKh4-g4
1.g7-g6 nKh4-h3
1.g7-g6 nKh4-g5
1.g7-g6 nKh4-g3
1.g7-g6 b2-b4
1.g7-g6 b2-b3

solution finished. Time = 0.079 s
 
   
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(6) Posted by Kevin Begley [Wednesday, May 13, 2009 16:10]

Thanks Joost & Juraj for the fast help...

Time for me to upgrade!
I was using popeye v4.41 -- and very quickly going insane trying to make sense of the output.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure the upgrade helps me in this instance, because I either require a "Siamese Kings" implementation, or a few days with a super-computer (running Win Chloe).
 
 
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MatPlus.Net Forum General Neutral Kings : royal or non-royal ?