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| (61) Posted by Alexander Leontyev [Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 00:45] |
Thank You, dear Administrator. You made my post more piquant.
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| (62) Posted by Harry Fougiaxis [Monday, Feb 1, 2010 10:37] |
Minutes of the FIDE Presidential Board meeting held in Halkidiki, Greece, 11-19 October 2009 (that is the previous one, not the one in Bursa, Turkey) are available at:
http://www.fide.com/images/stories/news2009/80th_fide_congress/minutes_and_annexes/minutes_of_2009_halkidiki_fide_eb.pdf
I know it is relatively old, but I post here as it includes interesting material to read, see paragraph 4.16, page 33.
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| (63) Posted by Kevin Begley [Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 18:24]; edited by Kevin Begley [10-02-02] |
Thanks Harry.
I wish this plot (to overthrow the PCCC) would be met with greater outrage...
But then, honestly, whose suspicions were ever wanting?
These minutes provide an explicit account of Mr.Selivanov's remarkable inability to count coup upon this democratic organization.
Even having been spotted some extraordinary cowardice among the organization's delegates -- it's as if he reactivated Rasputin's assassins to target PCCC.
Misguided ambitions aside, it is interesting to ponder why the correct tool (read: weapon of necessity) was so elusive.
Everybody knows that overthrowing a democratic organization demands only the mirage of improvements, and the buyout of delegates.
It's not rocket science.
Was the deafening silence from most delegates -- amidst their own upheaval -- not a clear signal?
In the face of these explicit minutes, any good delegate can no longer remain quiet.
But, I hear crickets protesting louder.
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| (64) Posted by [Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 19:07]; edited by [10-02-02] |
Kevin Begley writes:
>In the face of these explicit minutes, any good delegate can no longer remain quiet.
Again, it's a great pity there are no minutes from Rio yet. There was lot of material in
the last session, relevant to this point, as far as I recall. Enough, at least, that it made
me wonder what will happen in Greece this year, when there's an election of a new Presidium.
I would expect candidates to be presented early enough that delegates have a reasonable
chance of representing their countries in that matter.
Those Rio minutes would perhaps also, I think, demonstrate delegate Selivanov's absence from
much of the proceedings (well, the parts I attended, anyway): something I'm afraid I found
incompatible with the duties of a delegate, who is expected to be a official representative
of their nation. As someone who is helping to send a delegate to this kind of meeting, I would
not like to find any unaccounted-for absenteeism.
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| (65) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 19:17]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [10-02-02] |
>delegate Selivanov's absence from much of the proceedings
Georgy Evseev was the official delegate from Russia in Rio, not Selivanov.
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| (66) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 19:31] |
>Again, it's a great pity there are no minutes from Rio yet.
Is not it odd that we get more information from apparently authoritarian FIDE than from democratic PCCC/ICCU? Quite telling, I'd say.
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| (67) Posted by Kevin Begley [Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 19:49]; edited by Kevin Begley [10-02-02] |
Vladimir:
>Is not it odd that we get more information from apparently authoritarian FIDE than from democratic PCCC/ICCU? Quite telling, I'd say.
Please, continue...
Tell me what in the PCCC's minutes will clear (vindicate?) Mr.Selivanov from his part in this sinister plot to overthrow PCCC (as detailed in FIDE's own minutes)?
Are the FIDE minutes in error?
[Edit: if your only retort is to accuse PCCC of delay, I might concede the point (in the interest of avoiding this distraction). I wouldn't necessarily concede that this makes PCCC inept (as your tone suggests). Given that it has managed (with little help from the delegates) to withstand the plot against it, you must concede that PCCC has held to good principles.
If Mr.Selivanov should run for President of PCCC, please vote in whatever will be the opposite direction.]
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| (68) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 20:22]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [10-02-02] |
>Are the FIDE minutes in error?
No. I just realized that after all the FIDE bashing on this forum, we primarily rely on FIDE records. Mostly silence and secrecy comes from PCCC/ICCU with rare statements leaving more questions than answers.
>Tell me what in the PCCC's minutes will clear (vindiate?) Mr.Selivanov from the sinister intent to overthrow PCCC (as detailed in FIDE's own minutes)?
I disagree with your assessment of Selivanov's intent. Just one bit of (recent) history: was not it Mr. Selivanov, who tried to draw attention to upcoming FIDE decision about PCCC and prepare for it? Nobody at PCCC paid any attention until FIDE made the decision. If anything, PCCC itself is to blame for the current mess, not Mr. Selivanov or FIDE. Selivanov made mistakes (mostly PR related) and was heavily criticized here. PCCC so far managed to emerge unscathed.
>If Mr.Selivanov should run for President of PCCC, please vote in whatever will be the opposite direction.
I don't know about Mr. Selivanov's intentions but this position is quite unproductive. Same with portraying this conflict in good(PCCC) vs evil(FIDE, Selivanov). It just hides real issues that go far and beyond this current confrontation.
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| (69) Posted by Kevin Begley [Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 20:49]; edited by Kevin Begley [10-02-02] |
Vladimir:
>I just realized that after all the FIDE bashing on this forum, we primarily rely on FIDE records.
FIDE provided damning evidence against itself (have you read the minutes?), but you would prefer the delegates refrain from voicing their opinions, until the PCCC has an opportunity to return this favor (without any reason to expect it will occur)?
Would this novel protocol you've suggested allow for any discussion?
>PCCC so far managed to emerge unscathed.
Good. I hope PCCC will remain unscathed!
Perhaps you meant to say the "PCCC leadership" has managed to remain unscathed... but, I'd hardly agree...
Mr.Avner is somehow -- beyond my comprehension -- claimed to be responsible for an atmosphere which fostered delegate incohesion and cowardice, which nearly allowed the FIDE takeover. [Edit: let it be known that I have reached no opinion as to Mr.Avner's tact in producing remedies.]
I am thankful PCCC was kept alive, despite so much pressure, and so little support.
I am not certain to whom I owe this gratitude; but I am quite certain that Mr.Selivanov (and the silent delegates) deserve the opposite.
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| (70) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 21:08]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [10-02-02] |
Censored: I mis-read the statement I was addressing.
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| (71) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 21:58]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [10-02-02] |
>(have you read the minutes?)
I was actually more impressed(and embarrassed) by the following passage:
Mr. Selivanov had just returned from the World Championship and the Congress. The President of PCCC, Mr.U Avner, from Israel insulted FIDE when Mr. Selivanov asked for the floor. Mr Avner said that we are not with FIDE any more and we shall not give them the floor.
1.If it's not authoritative on Mr. Avner's part, I don't know what is. So much about democracy. I bet Selivanov's bid for PCCC presidency was turned down because of fear of such behavior.
2.Compare with inviting Mr. Avner to Busra and having the opportunity to make his argument on behalf of ICCU.
3.It's beyond comprehension how after such harsh words and disrespect to FIDE, Mr.Avner in his Bursa letter (http://www.sci.fi/~stniekat/pccc/iccu3.htm) claims FIDE option is still on the table.
It will tell a lot about state of our organization if Mr. Avner to be re-elected as PCCC/ICCU President.
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| (72) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 09:22] |
Juraj wrote:
QUOTE
Two most important officials of chess composition are in stark disagreement as regards past events and future prospects.
Business as usual.
Let me express my deep frustration.
Just to express my support for this comment. I do share same feeling. You found an excellent wording.
To Milan,
I am wondering if it's possible to add below messages buttons where members can click if they support/do not support comment. I saw this in many other forums and I think it would be nice to have that option. I know that you are redisigning this site from the scratch, so this is something to consider.
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| (73) Posted by Kevin Begley [Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 17:53] |
Miodrag,
I think we all agree with Juraj's comment.
Its correctness is virtually tautological; but, unfortunately, it rings like an empty bell.
To be sure, consider its implied (populist) solution: "throw the scoundrels out."
It sounds dreamy.
Except that we have no real powers to toss the FIDE VP.
The delegates can adios Mr.Avner on the steel guitar, at a song's fancy...
But, what will be the politics of his replacement (remember: G.W.Bush played populist in 2000)?
And, what trustworthy individual would run, after seeing what Mr.Avner was put through?
NOTE: Regardless what you may think of Mr.Avner's performance, he was given no support (even generic PCCC support, while in dire need).
Ask yourself: who would boldly take his place, given this environment?
The delegates are not suddenly going to rally behind the new PCCC President.
They don't even possess the courage to condemn an explicit coup attempt, nor to call out the parties who conspired to disrupt PCCC.
Mr.Selivanov was never on some lone madman's crusade.
A minority faction rallies behind him, for deliberate purpose (expecting specific, concealed results).
If FIDE sees their own Medvedev-type candidate onto the PCCC's Presidential ballot, the populist fast becomes the pawn.
I'd rather complete exodus.
Let freedom ring.
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| (74) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 09:18]; edited by Miodrag Mladenović [10-02-04] |
Kevin wrote:
QUOTE
If FIDE sees their own Medvedev-type candidate onto the PCCC's Presidential ballot, the populist fast becomes the pawn.
What's wrong with Medvedev-type candidate? Mr. Medvedev is democratically elected president of Russia and I do not see a point here. In my opinion he is doing his job very well and I would not mind having Medvedev-type candidate onto the PCCC's Presidential ballot.
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| (75) Posted by Kevin Begley [Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 13:28]; edited by Kevin Begley [10-02-04] |
Miodrag wrote:
Kevin wrote:
If FIDE sees their own Medvedev-type candidate onto the PCCC's Presidential ballot, the populist fast becomes the pawn.
>What's wrong with Medvedev-type candidate? ... overtly political (and irrelevant) speech removed
My brief Medvedev reference was, clearly, used only to suggest the obvious: having failed to eradicate PCCC by other means, known parties (clue: think geography!) will conspire to turn PCCC, by proxy, into FIDE's puppet.
Hint: the innuendo here is that FIDE = Putin (I think most would agree this is a fair analogy).
What I did not do, despite your allegation to the contrary (ironically, made in the midst of your taking liberties to do so yourself) is enter into an overtly political discussion.
I respect this forum -- precisely why I will not reply to any of a litany of political assertions you have made in your speech.
Regarding your completely baseless reference of the former President of my country: you are preaching to the choir.
But, that doesn't excuse you from the insult.
Kevin.
ps:
I don't favor your idea to allow anonymous voting in this thread.
I don't see why anyone (particularly delegates!) need resort to the anonymity you have called for.
Is there some reason they cannot speak here (without fear)?
I find it curious how nobody is offended -- in the slightest -- by a plot to usurp the powers of a democratic body (PCCC).
Has nobody read the document?
Have none of the delegates the fortitude to speak to these documents?
What value has PCCC, if few are willing to protect it?
What value has a delegate, if they refuse to defend the organization that they were elected to represent.
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| (76) Posted by Miodrag Mladenović [Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 15:22] |
Kevin wrote:
QUOTE
Regarding your completely baseless reference of the former President of my country: you are preaching to the choir.
But, that doesn't excuse you from the insult.
I did not reference the former President of your country (see private note that I sent you). You should ask yourself why you connected your former President to my statement. Anyway I removed my comment. I do agree it's overtly political. I am not going forward to write about politics.
QUOTE
I don't favor your idea to allow anonymous voting in this thread.
My proposal was not about voting. It was more marking like/do not like comment in order to avoid posts with a similar context. On the other hand all of the posts here are in some way anonymous. Anyone can create dummy email account and join this forum.
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| (77) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 17:08]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [10-02-04] |
Kevin,
>after seeing what Mr.Avner was put through?
Mr.Avner and other PCCC officials are as much to blame for the current situation as FIDE and Mr.Selivanov. Unfortunately, Mr. Avner proved not up to the task as PCCC president. He made some mistakes before(remember Bulgaria fiasco?) and his handling of the current FIDE-PCCC confrontation is quite dismal. Mr Avner put in danger PCCC future by placing his personal dislike of Mr.Selivanov above the interests of the very organization he is the president. I doubt his behavior at Rio may qualify as "uninterrupted mutual respect" and "urgent need for a dialogue"(from the letter to FIDE). "Of course, to be effective, this dialogue should be carried out by participants who basically trust each other" - reads as 'get rid of Mr. Selivanov and deal with us directly' - very unprofessional, IMHO. If Mr.Avner cannot work with Mr.Selivanov(elected FIDE official to deal with PCCC), maybe it's time for him to go.
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| (78) Posted by Mario Richter [Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 23:18] |
"Shahmatnaya Poeziya" No.47 ( http://www.selivanov.ru/download/Magazins/Poezia/2009/ShP47.pdf ) contains an interesting article about Rio 2009. And hey - even the Matplus forum is mentioned there as beeing used by Georgy Evseev (the official delegate from Russia) to do some "артподготовку" ...
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| (79) Posted by Guy Sobrecases [Friday, Feb 5, 2010 08:59] |
Vladimir,
Would you please be so kind to translate "артподготовку" for us?
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| (80) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Friday, Feb 5, 2010 09:07]; edited by Vladimir Tyapkin [10-02-05] |
The literal(military) meaning refers to artillery preparation that precedes the full blown advance. In the context of article it means to check the validity of arguments on matplus.net before presenting it to PCCC delegates.
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