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MatPlus.Net  Forum Promenade FIDE defines orthofairychess again :-) |
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| | | (1) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Monday, Sep 4, 2017 10:10] | FIDE defines orthofairychess again :-)
Only in rapid though.
A4.1.2 states that a botched game starting position is valid after
10 moves. They even included a passus for castling. But they didn't
thought of the following: What happens with a pawn on the 1st rank?
(Yesterday at a rapid tournament, playful kids produced exactly
that, of course it was corrected before starting, but imagine two
totally absent minds overlook it.)
So, how does a pawn (any color :-) on the 1st move? Only answers
compatible to the rest of the FIDE rules are accepted :-)
Hauke
| | | (2) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Monday, Sep 4, 2017 11:41] |
https://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html?id=171&view=article
QUOTE
3.7
The pawn may move forward to the square immediately in front of it on the same file, provided that this square is unoccupied, or
on its first move the pawn may move as in 3.7.a or alternatively it may advance two squares along the same file, provided that both squares are unoccupied, or
the pawn may move to a square occupied by an opponent’s piece diagonally in front of it on an adjacent file, capturing that piece.
A pawn occupying a square on the same rank as and on an adjacent file to an opponent’s pawn which has just advanced two squares in one move from its original square may capture this opponent’s pawn as though the latter had been moved only one square. This capture is only legal on the move following this advance and is called an ‘en passant’ capture.
When a player, having the move, plays a pawn to the rank furthest from its starting position, he must exchange that pawn as part of the same move for a new queen, rook, bishop or knight of the same colour on the intended square of arrival.
This is called the square of ‘promotion’. The player's choice is not restricted to pieces that have been captured previously. This exchange of a pawn for another piece is called promotion, and the effect of the new piece is immediate.
As the FIDE Laws of Chess don't specify here that a pawn must be on the second rank before its first move, it may move from rank 1 to 2 or 3, but not do any double step afterwards, even if going to the second rank, as it would not be the pawn's first move.
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| | | (3) Posted by Kostas Prentos [Monday, Sep 4, 2017 14:13] |
A pawn on the first rank... Lovely! The FIDE laws of chess, in their lack of imagination, treat this case better than us. To this day, I am unsure how a pawn on the first rank moves from one fairy condition to another. Sometimes, it can move one step only, sometimes one, two or three, or occasionally it may just be immobilized, with no further moves allowed, until it is transferred to a different rank with fairy play. There is no consistency in the realm of fairy chess, at least about pawn moves.
| | | (4) Posted by Geir Sune Tallaksen Østmoe [Monday, Sep 4, 2017 16:53] |
Also, it can be captured en passant on the 2nd rank, according to 3.7d:
"A pawn occupying a square on the same rank as and on an adjacent file to an opponent’s pawn which has just advanced two squares in one move from its original square may capture this opponent’s pawn as though the latter had been moved only one square. This capture is only legal on the move following this advance and is called an ‘en passant’ capture."
Obviously, a pawn on a rank further than the 2nd rank also has the right to a double step if both players are absent-minded enough not to notice. So a pawn on the 6th rank can go straight to the 8th rank if there are no pieces blocking it. However, according to 3.7e, it does not promote!
"When a player, having the move, plays a pawn to the rank furthest from its starting position, he must exchange that pawn as part of the same move for a new queen, rook, bishop or knight of the same colour on the intended square of arrival.
This is called the square of ‘promotion’. The player's choice is not restricted to pieces that have been captured previously. This exchange of a pawn for another piece is called promotion, and the effect of the new piece is immediate."
If the pawn starts on the 6th rank, then the rank furthest from its starting position is the 1st rank, not the 8th! So it looks like the pawn just stays on the 8th rank without promoting?
| | | (5) Posted by Frank Richter [Monday, Sep 4, 2017 17:43] |
This (and other similar) discussion(s) reminds me the good old question:
What is a "dot"?
Everybody knows it, but nobody can define it exactly ;)
| | | (6) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Monday, Sep 4, 2017 18:38] |
A "dot" is what is at the end of this sentence.
Also, nice observation about the inability to promote. I wonder if this can be (ab)used with Sentinelles Circe (that one where each step leaves a pawn behind) to enforce pawns to be born on the fourth rank, not the fifth, to avoid duals.
But that would require to specify to use the FIDE Laws of Chess for pawn moves instead of Sentinelles Circe fairy rules.
| | | (7) Posted by Frank Richter [Monday, Sep 4, 2017 20:44] |
At the end of this sentence is an "e" ...
| | | (8) Posted by Andrew Buchanan [Tuesday, Sep 5, 2017 11:37]; edited by Andrew Buchanan [17-09-05] |
Yes! "Months ahead of my time" :) I began to explore retro implications of all these new pawn ideas (double initial move, en passant, promotion non-viability) in Julia's Fairies No. 1135. In the end, the laws obviously need to be generalized to allow for forward play with *any* arrangement of pieces on the board, and FIDE's visionary "orthofairy" chess (love the name) basically shows us most how pawns should be handled. Multiple kings and castling are all that remains to generalize. Now revisit http://juliasfairies.com//?s=1135 and enjoy!
| | | (9) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Tuesday, Sep 5, 2017 12:44] |
I fail to see proof that there was no play before. If Black played Kg8xh8, or even without a capture, enough play is possible to have no proof that Black pawns can still make a double-step..
| | | (10) Posted by Andrew Buchanan [Tuesday, Sep 5, 2017 15:26]; edited by Andrew Buchanan [17-09-05] |
QUOTE
I fail to see proof that there was no play before. If Black played Kg8xh8, or even without a capture, enough play is possible to have no proof that Black pawns can still make a double-step.
Thanks for your interest: this is a h#5 so it's Black to move first in the solution. Indeed in this generalized version of chess it appears that it will *always* be Black to move first as one can never exclude the possibility that the diagram is the starting position of the game with Black to move. Codex Article 15 which changes the first player to move in the solution, becomes toothless. The alternative in this composition is that White has just played a single move from the starting position, but in either case we know that Black has never played a move.
If White has just moved, it was 0. b1-b2, and prior to that the Black king was under attack with White to move. This presents no problems from a forward point of view, under the Laws, a king cannot be captured. So White just moves and then we evaluate Black's status. But this attack means that this prior position was not one that can be reached in chess, even in chess as bonkers as this version, *except* as a starting position.
| | | (11) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Tuesday, Sep 5, 2017 18:02] |
Oops, I completely have missed that Black is to move. Nevermind then.
| | | (12) Posted by Joost de Heer [Thursday, Sep 7, 2017 22:13] |
QUOTE
The pawn may move forward to the square immediately in front of it on the same file, provided that this square is unoccupied, or
on its first move the pawn may move as in 3.7.a or alternatively it may advance two squares along the same file, provided that both squares are unoccupied, or
the pawn may move to a square occupied by an opponent’s piece diagonally in front of it on an adjacent file, capturing that piece.
Does this mean that a pawn created by sentinelles may always make a double-step as its first move?
| | | (13) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Friday, Sep 15, 2017 14:25] |
Well Hauke, how did you come to your interpretation in post 1?
("... a botched game starting position is valid...")
2.3 defines "the game starting position", so where did you find your definition?
A4.2, allows continuing the game after an illegal play as though it was legal, except for the cases mentioned in A4.4
So, after 10 moves, the reached position is considered as if it has been reached by legal PLAY from "2.3-position".
An apparently impossible PLAY of a wP from "2.3" to 1st rank is legalized by A4.2.
Thus, such a Pawn is considered as though it already had played its first move.
In case of doubt, the "Preface" should be applied* to A4.1.2. (as for the castling rights).
*-"...by studying analogous situations which are regulated in the Laws..."
FIDE rules are imperfect but the NATURE of the game is given.
(Deliberate distortion of that nature doesn't look friendly to the game.)
| | | (14) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Sunday, Sep 17, 2017 19:01] |
@Nikola: A4.1.2. says that an incorrect (!) starting position can't
be corrected (after 10 moves). Especially it doesn't specify the
nature of the fault. If I sneaked in my grasshopper (special fairy
chess Staunton figure, pat. pend.), that would be kinda legit too...
| | | (15) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Sunday, Sep 17, 2017 19:51] |
The issue is that the grasshopper is not defined in the official FIDE Laws of Chess, so you wouldn't be able to use it.
Otherwise I'd just put a few cannons from Xiangqi in ("Pao" in fairy chess terms) and win easily.
| | | (16) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Sunday, Sep 17, 2017 23:35] |
@Hauke
Article 7 deals with the irregularities
A7.2.1 - If during a game it is found that the initial position of the pieces was incorrect, the game shall be CANCELLED and a NEW game shall be played.
In Rapid, it becomes IRRELEVANT from which initial position the first 10 moves were actually played. The game shall not be cancelled but continued (obeying A4.2&4.4).
Nothing suggests that the incorrect actual initial set-up is thus legalized as being the correct one. On the contrary, the "incorrect king placement" refers to A2.3 with regards to "king's original square" and castling (A3.8.2).
The "original squares" of the pieces are given in A2.3 and an "incorrect placement" tells that the respective piece was moved, no matter how.
| | | (17) Posted by Andrew Buchanan [Monday, Sep 18, 2017 08:55]; edited by Andrew Buchanan [17-09-18] |
See http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74306. This card is not orthodox magic the gathering, but was introduced in an official joke set. By the way, Paos are literally a common sight on the street here in Hong Kong since so many old gents play chinese chess out of doors. I like the word "Pao" since that's the kind of noise a small cannon might make.
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