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| (1) Posted by Joose Norri [Wednesday, Aug 30, 2023 14:34] |
Batumi congress agenda
In there is chapter four: Cooperation with the FIDE. This has perhaps no direct practical relevance, but I wonder if the delegates - and all of us - are familiar with what it means to be an affiliated organization.
See the https://handbook.fide.com/files/handbook/EthicsAndDisciplinaryCode2022.pdf
It should be read in full, I highlight a couple of the articles:
4.1 All members of the FIDE family shall be subject to this Code and fall under the jurisdiction of
the EDC.
4.8 Every person and body in the FIDE Family submits to the exclusive jurisdiction of the EDC
to hear and decide complaints of violations of this Code and to the exclusive jurisdiction of the
Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) to determine any final appeal from a final decision of the
EDC.
18.1 Each person to whom this Code applies is responsible for his/her individual conduct at all times,
irrespective of whether such conduct occurs under the direction of any other person, and may
be sanctioned appropriately.
I should think that I am not the only one who would not agree e.g. with the doping regulations if competing in a WCSC, to take the obvious example. (If I am, I stand corrected.) But more important is the general principle. But perhaps I misinterpret.
As historical references/comparisons I'd point out that the IPB declined to affiliate with the FIDE exactly for this reason, loss of independent decision, at least that is how the president put it in The Problemist. That then had a direct effect on the birth of the PCCC. And in 1987-88 the GMA did likewise.
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| (2) Posted by Torsten Linß [Wednesday, Aug 30, 2023 16:15] |
Thanks for pointing this out!
Torsten
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| (3) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Wednesday, Aug 30, 2023 16:23] |
Big efforts were made to separate Fide ans Wfcc. It would be a great mistake to step back.
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| (4) Posted by Joose Norri [Wednesday, Aug 30, 2023 16:32] |
Jacques, this is the current situation.
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| (5) Posted by Torsten Linß [Wednesday, Aug 30, 2023 16:59] |
The question is: Has there ever been a vote within WFCC to become a FIDE-affiliate?
If not there is no foundation to list WFCC as an affiliated organisation on the FIDE websites.
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| (6) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Wednesday, Aug 30, 2023 18:10] |
what is the current situation ?
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| (7) Posted by Joose Norri [Wednesday, Aug 30, 2023 19:32] |
That WFCC is affiliated to the FIDE, that has been the case all the time, since 2010. I have tried to make this point but no-one cares.
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| (8) Posted by Joose Norri [Wednesday, Aug 30, 2023 20:15] |
It is part of a longer development. I expect some of the following will offend some readers; I take that risk.
The structure of FIDE led beginning the 1970's to a situation in which the presiding president was relying on the vote of federations that represented 1-2 percent of chess players in the world. The president could appoint all subcommission members, including the president, fully independently. In some subcommissions this led to the situation where a member was from a country with absolutely no chess tradition or players. I know there is in the WFCC statutes an article that tries to prevent this.
This was not a problem with the PCCC before 2006, or if it was, we have not been told.
It is the impression that the WFCC does not agree with my view.
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| (9) Posted by Vlaicu Crisan [Wednesday, Sep 13, 2023 16:06] |
Let me quote the content Article 14 from FIDE Charter:
Art. 14 Affiliated Organisations
14.1 The General Assembly, following an advisory opinion of the Council, can admit as Affiliated Organisations:
a) organisations grouping Member Federations;
b) associations or organisations which represent some regions or transnational territories;
c) associations or other organisations representing people with a common ground or with same interests on some specific chess activities.
14.2 Affiliated Organisations have the right to take part in FIDE Congresses and in the General Assembly, without voting.
14.3 Affiliated Organisations can organise and participate in some specific FIDE competitions or events, according with FIDE rules and regulations.
14.4 Affiliated Organisations can be authorised to organise events under the auspices of FIDE.
14.5 Affiliated Organisations can be temporarily suspended or permanently expelled by the General Assembly, for just cause.
The FIDE World Cup might not be possible without registering WFCC as an affiliated organisation.
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| (10) Posted by Anatoly Slesarenko [Wednesday, Sep 13, 2023 16:38] |
So, affiliated organisations have some rightes and no obligations. It is a tottal happiness! So why to argue the status?!
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| (11) Posted by Joose Norri [Thursday, Sep 14, 2023 06:04] |
Please do read the relevant chapter from the FIDE handbook that I mentioned in the original post.
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| (12) Posted by Anatoly Slesarenko [Thursday, Sep 14, 2023 08:35] |
Yes, I briefly got acquainted and found nothing disturbing.
FIDE in fact is a UN on the planet of Chess. And not to aspire be a member of it looks very weird. To be free in total oblivion is not the point. It is better to widly promote our art imposing some restriction (not allow take part in solving competitions after a glass of scotch, for example!?).
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| (13) Posted by Viktoras Paliulionis [Thursday, Sep 14, 2023 11:37] |
It's not about a glass of whiskey. Read the Code more carefully. UN members are independent countries. FIDE is more like an empire than the UN.
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| (14) Posted by Kevin Begley [Friday, Sep 15, 2023 06:02] |
I fail to understand the empire analogy...
I'd like to better understand your point.
Can you please elaborate what precisely you mean to convey by this analogy?
An empire is usually created by conquest, and divided between a dominant center and subordinate peripheries.
I get that FIDE is the dominant center, and chess composition is a subordinate periphery (in FIDE's eyes).
Is that inherently evil? No.
If FIDE provides us sufficient autonomy, enthusiasts and artists can be content to occupy a subordinate periphery of this larger group.
This can be mutually beneficial (we share some profound common interests: to advance understanding and appreciation of Chess), and when it is not beneficial, I don't see that we have surrendered our capacity to detach.
Further, if the empire is Chess, what subordinate territory is to be conquered? Madrasi? Circe Parrain? Shogi?
What do you call an empire that ceases to annex new territory by conquest? It looks like Federalism to me. A union of member states, each of which have some level of sovereignty. I can live with that. What's the problem here?
I grant you, FIDE has had a troubled past. Is that your point?
OK. Has FIDE not improved substantially?
How specifically is FIDE impeding the subordinate periphery we call Chess Problem Composition?
Maybe it's better to provide what you'd like FIDE to provide to problem chess (if anything -- title validation? solver ratings?), and what you think FIDE requires in exchange.
Can you explain how specifically this relationship is failing us members of the subordinate periphery?
Independence is hardly required if there's no impediment imposed upon us.
What's the major impediment (in your view)?
Why should we view FIDE as an (inherently?) empirical occupier of our territory?
Why do we need more than the right to secede, should we no longer wish to continue our union with FIDE?
Do we not have that right?
If not, how can FIDE stop us from organizing an independent charter, if we so decide?
Any group of chess problemists are free to declare the full territory of chess composition is exclusively their own.
Nobody can stop them.
They're even free to plagiarize great works of art (just as you are free to sell your copies of the Mona Lisa).
But if this is their intent -- to behave as a mob of thieves, lacking any integrity -- they will never escape righteous condemnation.
My point being: if the entire chess problem community wishes to walk away from FIDE, we can (and there's no stopping us).
But, why on Earth should we want to do that?
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| (15) Posted by Joost de Heer [Friday, Sep 15, 2023 10:42] |
A silly example: Did you know that this applies to solvers in the WCSC, because it's a top level tournament?
11.9 c) Dress code: In any top level tournament, players, delegations or teams must comply with a high standard dress code. Delegations includes both a player`s seconds and any other individual who the player allows to conduct business on behalf of the players. Players are responsible for the actions of acknowledged members of their delegations
And WFCC has nothing to say about that, because it's an affiliate organisation.
Another one:
4.9 Every person in the FIDE Family shall be deemed to have agreed:
[..]
b) that they have a personal and non-delegable responsibility (i) to familiarise themselves with all of the requirements of this Code that are applicable to them; and (ii) to comply with those requirements. Ignorance of the Code will be no defence to proceedings for violation of the Code;
All composers and solvers who have complied with this responsibility, please raise your hand. What? No one?
The fact is: Chess composition and solving is so very inherently different from playing chess that not a lot, if not almost none at all, of the rules in the ethics and disciplinary code make sense, yet they must be applied.
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| (16) Posted by Kevin Begley [Friday, Sep 15, 2023 23:53] |
Is FIDE actually enforcing this dress code?
Has any solver been turned away for failing to comply with FIDE's dress code rule?
Did they make somebody cover up their Professional Chess Association neck tattoo?
If this FIDE rule (enforced or not) is really a deal breaker, please provide us an account of negotiation attempts with FIDE.
Where's the petition to relax the dress code for solvers?
I don't see this as a reason to pretend FIDE is a conquering empire, an occupying force.
This can't be resolved amicably? Really?
Has FIDE plans to live stream solving tournaments?
If so, maybe a dress code makes good sense -- this would put solving competitors in a better light.
Maybe we should consider the benefits of FIDE's position on this matter.
Either way, this is nothing.
Try re-telling Moby Dick from the perspective of the white whale, on the shoestring budget of $150M.
This is a costume change.
If you don't agree with it, protest in a puffy shirt. That will force FIDE to the negotiation table.
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| (17) Posted by Joost de Heer [Saturday, Sep 16, 2023 12:12] |
QUOTE
Is FIDE actually enforcing this dress code?
No, but they CAN. And that's the whole point. Theoretically, a team could arrive all suited up and at the end register a complaint about the dresscode of the others, and WFCC would have nothing to say about this complaint.
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| (18) Posted by Kevin Begley [Saturday, Sep 16, 2023 13:38] |
OK, so negotiate with FIDE.
Until then, advise solvers to come prepared to adhere to FIDE's dress code.
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| (19) Posted by Anatoly Slesarenko [Saturday, Sep 16, 2023 16:59] |
Dress code is a very reasonable demand. As for me I hate seeing elderly men in shorts with crooked, sweaty and hairy legs.
Shirt and trousers are o'k. No suit is needed.
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| (20) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Saturday, Sep 16, 2023 18:11] |
Don't discriminate elderly men showing hairy legs.
If you don't like them, it's your problem, look at the chessboard.
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