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MatPlus.Net Forum General New type of Circe
 
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(1) Posted by Diyan Kostadinov [Tuesday, Jun 4, 2013 05:34]

New type of Circe


Dear chess friends, you can see the short article with definition, shemes and example of the new type of Circe with the working name "Circe X" on the following direct link:
http://kobulchess.com/en/problems/originals2013/281-chess-composition-fairy-condition-circe-x.html
 
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(2) Posted by Diyan Kostadinov [Tuesday, Jun 4, 2013 05:37]

After some shared opinions, the name "Circe Shift" (or "Circe S" for short) sounds pretty good to me.
It presents very well the added option.
 
 
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(3) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Tuesday, Jun 4, 2013 13:25]

Circe family is about the rebirth and different types differently determine the rebirth squares. Circe Shift suggests a shift of the rebirth squares, it might be a whole sub-family of Circe: Shift1, Shift2, etc.-> all rebirth squares of the pieces would be shifted from 1st rank to 2nd, 3rd etc.

Circe X is about a piece which occupies the rebirth square. A whole sub-family of Circe X might be developed and a name of this sub-family should suggest not a dislocation of a square but of the occupying piece. For instance, CouscousCirce determines the rebirth squares, additional X+ should determine what happens with the occupying piece.

CouscousCirce-XPWC might mean that after wRh6xbSd6, bS is reborn on a1 and the piece occupying a1 is dislocated to h6. X means that the rebirth square must be emptied and PWC determines what happens with the occupying piece (a kind of cyclic Platzwechsel). Perhaps it all could determine: a primary rebirth square X for a captured piece and secondary rebirth square for a piece occupying X.
(Actually, X might mean not only one square but a set of squares in case of e.g. Circe Cage.)

Anyway, the word 'shift' should be reserved for the sets of elements like complete ranks or files.
 
   
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(4) Posted by Diyan Kostadinov [Wednesday, Jun 5, 2013 05:50]

Thank you Nikola for your very interesting comment! Your suggestion to add even more different options than just a normal move by the occupied piece which exist on the rebirth square looks very attractive and dynamic! I feel that many interesting ideas can be found here.

So the initial name with "X" can be used in following way:

- Circe-X: a type of Circe where if the rebirth square is already occupied by another piece (A) it must immediately move (without capturing) vacating the square for landing of the captured piece (B). (see the full definition in the article on the link above). For example wBc8, bRa6(piece B), bSa8(piece A) - 1.Bxa6(bSb6, bRa8) or 1.Bxa6(bSc7, bRa8) according to choise of the capturing side (white);

- Circe-XPWC: a type of Circe where if the rebirth square is already occupied by another piece (A) it must vacating this rebirth square for the captured piece (B) and reappear on the initial square of the capturing piece. For Example wBc8, bRa6(piece B), bSa8(piece A) - 1.Bxa6(bSc8, bRa8);

- Circe-XCirce: a type of Circe where if the rebirth square is already occupied by another piece (A) it must vacating this rebirth square for the captured piece (B) and reappear on it's game-array square. For Example wBc8, bRa6(piece B), bSa8(piece A) - 1.Bxa6(bSg8, bRa8).

- Circe-XCouscous: a type of Circe where if the rebirth square is already occupied by another piece (A) it must vacating this rebirth square for the captured piece (B) and reappear on the Circe rebirth square of the capturing piece. For Example wBc8, bRa6(piece B), bSa8(piece A) - 1.Bxa6(bSf1, bRa8).
etc.

Same type can be used for other Circe forms too. For example AntiCirce-X, AntiCirce-XPWC etc.

Looks well and can enrich all Circe family conditions. I hope that some of this forms will be possible to be programing in chess solving programs.
 
   
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(5) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Wednesday, Jun 5, 2013 13:17]

How about MoveCirce? PushCirce? Circe PeriAssassin?
 
   
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(6) Posted by seetharaman kalyan [Wednesday, Jun 5, 2013 16:47]

My vote for PushCirce
 
 
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(7) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Thursday, Jun 6, 2013 03:38]; edited by Nikola Predrag [13-06-06]

I can't help complicating things, still a point or two might turn out sensible.
Circe*-X would indicate that something happens with the piece occupying the rebirth square X defined by Circe*. If a whole sub-family could be developed, something must be added to X to determine what happens with that piece.

Just as an example, Circe-Xm could be an indicator for Circe-Xmake ->'make' would indicate that the piece occupying X must be dislocated by 'playing' a 'make-move' (described in AntiTake&Make). So, Circe-Xm would actually indicate the condition invented by Diyan. (The indicator 'm'(make) could be replaced by the proposed 'p'(push), 's'(shift) or else, providing a proper definition.)

It could be a covention that Circe-X by default means Circe-Xm but we should stay aware of that fact, to maintain a logic of the indicators. Therefore, the best default menaning of Circe-X might be Circe-XCirce as described by Diyan -> a piece A, occupying the primary rebirth square X1 of the captured piece B, is dislocated/reborn on a secondary rebirth square X2 (X1/X2 are the initial squares of B/A)

A combination Circe + AntiCirce determines the rebirth squares for both captured and capturing piece. Circe-X + AntiCirce-Y might be considered.

Perhaps a more general system of indicators should also be considered. A nice and sensible ad hoc example of some basic principles is beyond my imagination in this hour. The rest of this post is not recommended for reading because of a bizzare use of the indicators before or/and behind X (Circe-*x*):
('a' is for annihilation and 'i' for immunity)

Circe-aX, a captured piece is annihilated if X is occupied=common Circe
Circe-iX, a piece is immune (can't be captured) if X is occupied=Strict Circe
Circe-Xa, a piece occupying X is annihilated, the captured piece is reborn on X=?
Circe-aXi, a piece occupying X is immune (can't be captured or dislocated)=Circe-aX
Circe-iXa, a piece B is immune if its rebirth square X is occupied by a piece A but a piece C which attacks B may capture and annihilate A, instead of B ?!

If there's no practical significance of this at present, even less would be in:

Circe(i,a), which could indicate that the pieces of the side which plays are immune and the captured opponent's pieces will be annihilated, would mean that there's no Circe condition at all. In a Fairy-world, this might indicate the orthodox chess.

Nevertheless, a good system of indicators might help in a development of new conditions with a relation to the known conditions.
(A sequence of a primary rebirth square X1 for a captured piece, a secondary rebirth square X2 for a piece dislocated from X1, a tertiary rebirth square X3 for a piece dislocated from X2... might never end hypothetically.)
 
   
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(8) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Thursday, Jun 6, 2013 15:38]; edited by Nikola Predrag [13-06-06]

I wonder whether the example could illustrate some possibilities.
There is no solution for h#1(diagram) with combined common Circe+AntiCirce because after 1.Rd8-c8 Bb5+ 2.Rc8-b8!, the AntiCirce rebirth square b8 for wRook-Lion is occupied.

(= 2+6 )
h#1 Circe-X(Circe)+AntiCirce-Yi(Circe)
wRLb1(Rook-Lion)

Indicator 'Yi' means that a piece occupying Y is immune (can't be dislocated/pushed or annihilated) if its own initial square (for its Circe rebirth) is occupied.
Now, 1.Rd8-c8? Be8-b5+ 2.Rc8-b8!, bRb8 is immune (can't be pushed to h8 nor annihilated).
Intended solution: 1.Rh8xe8!(bBa8>c8,bRe8>a8,wBf1) Bf1-b5#
2.Ra8-b8?? doesn't work when h8 is empty.
 
   
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(9) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Sunday, Jun 9, 2013 01:01]

No reaction, quite expectedly since the previous 2 posts might seem pointless.
My intention is not to invent new conditions but to provoke a creation of some general systematization of fairy effects.
I add one more post, since at least the newest Diyan's condition needs a determination about what happens with the piece A which occupies the rebirth square of a captured piece B. If A can't play a 'captureless move', it might disappear or in case of the other type, B can not be captured.

Example in post 8 did not provoke any comments, so I have to ask and answer myself.
Simple Circe would be enough for the rebirth of wB on f1. Condition '-X(Circe)' would be necessary if for instance bS is added on f1:
1.Rh8xe8(bSf1>g8,wBf1,etc.)
But the only function of bSf1 would be to justify the fairy condition.

Next diagram 1 would have dualistic solution in case of Circe-X(Circe)+AntiCirce-Yi(Circe) -> h8 is empty and the immunity 'Yi' would be useless.
Circe-X(Circe) would allow 1.Rg8xe8(bBa8>c8,bRe8>a8,bSf1>g8,wBf1) but also 1.Rd8xe8(bBa8>c8,bRe8>a8,-bSf1,wBf1), because of 'X(Circe)' bSf1 is annihilated since g8 is occupied. A proper stipulation would be as under the diagram:
diagram 1
(= 2+7 )
h#1 Circe-Xi(Circe)+AntiCirce-Y(Circe)
1.Rg8xe8!(bBa8>c8,bRe8>a8,bSf1>g8,wBf1) Bf1-b5#
1.Rd8xe8?? would annihilate wB because its rebirth square is occupied and bSf1 can't be neither reborn(pushed) on the occupied square g8 nor annihilated (because of immunity 'Xi').

Speculation about a secondary rebirth square '-X2', featuring 'Ya' (a=annihilation):
diagram 2
(= 3+5 )
h#1 Circe-X1[Circe-X2(Circe)]+AntiCirce-Ya
wCAf1(Camel)

1.Rc8xe8(bBa8>c8,bRe8>a8,bSf8>b8,wCAf1>f8,wBf1) Bf1-b5#
'AntiCirce-Ya' determines that any piece which occupies a square of AntiCirce-rebirth, is annihilated when a capturing piece is reborn on Y. Therefore in the mate, wRLb1 threats to capture on b7 and be reborn on b8 while bSb8 will be annihilated. Also, wCAf8 could capture on c7 and be reborn on c8, then bBc8 would be annihilated.

The solution of diagram 2 should be the same with the more complicated conditions Circe-X1[Circe-X2(Circe)]+AntiCirce-Yi[Circe-Y2a] This could be analysed if anyone happens to be curious about it.

Speculation about tertiary, quadriary... rebirth squares in a simplyfied way:
Condition AntiCirce-Xn(Circe) determines what happens with the pieces which occupy the primary, secondary, tertiary etc. rebirths squares X1,X2,X3 etc.
The scheme deals with the clash of rebirths of a wN(Nightrider) and bS on b8(=X1,X2...Xn)
diagram 3
(= 1+2 )
AntiCirce-Xn(Circe)

Simple AntiCirce, without '-Xn(Circe)', forbids Nxb7 since b8 is occupied. Adding '-Xn(Circe)' allows Nxb7 and bPb7 will be annihilated as well as either wN or bS. Only one piece will remain on the board, wN or bS, depending on 'n' which should be determined by a stipulation.
-x1 = bS is annihilated when wN is reborn on b8 after the AntiCirce capture
-X2 = wN is first reborn on b8(=X1), then annihilated by the rebirth of bS on b8(=X2)
-X3,X4 etc. would alternate the final result, n only determines when a piece will be annihilated since its Circe-rebirth is no more possible because its rebirth square is occupied.
 
   
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(10) Posted by Diyan Kostadinov [Sunday, Jun 9, 2013 04:43]; edited by Diyan Kostadinov [13-06-09]

Nikola, your ideas are interesting but I think that they looks somehow complicated. Your presented examples are with fairy pieces, combination of more conditions, indexes etc. which is too much for the beginning of this new type of Circe. My suggestion is that we should keep them for a while and include them when the basic Circe X type become more popular and understandable for all.

In the definition of Circe X in my website I wrote that "If there is not possible legal movement of piece A, the capture is not allowed." Of course there are possible other options too, but I think that this one is more interesting, because some defencive effects can be involved. See the scheme:

(= 5+7 )


The white threatens mate 1.Qxc6(bRcb8, bBc8)#, but the Black have the defence 1...Rab8! because now the bBc6 can not be captured (the piece A - bRc8 have not legal move to empty the square for reborn of the captured bB).

P.S. In your last diagram above if the condition is with basic "X" rules: "Anti Circe X", the following moves are possible:
1.Nxb7(bSa6, wNb8); 1.Nxb7(bSc6, wNb8) and 1.Nxb7(bSd7, wNb8) and the capturing side - white, deciding which one to play.
But if we add some pieces on a6, c6 and d7 squares in the initial position - the capture is not allowed. In my opinion this is the best and should be the main option.
 
   
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(11) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Monday, Jun 10, 2013 02:28]

Yes Diyan, it is complicated as much as I had the patience and time to make it. I wanted to explore how useful might be some hypothetical indexes when the conditions become complicated. It is not about presenting new fairy conditions, it is about the possible power of indexes. Actually, not about the indexes but about the logic which they could represent.

I've had fun with it myself and I believe it's worth considering, so I made it public.
Yor definition of the new condition Circe-X ends with:
"...but if the rebirth square is already occupied by another piece (A) it must immediately move (without capturing) vacating the square for landing of the captured piece (B). The capturing side decides where the piece A should move. If there is not possible legal movement, the capture is not allowed (or possible variation – the captured piece disappearing)."

- "...If there is not possible legal movement, the capture is not allowed" would be Circe-iX, it means that the potentially captured piece B which should be reborn on square X is immune, if X can't be legally vacated by the piece A = the capture is not allowed

- "...If there is not possible legal movement, the captured piece disappearing" would be Circe-aX, it means that the captured piece B which should be reborn on square X is annihilated, if X can't be legally vacated by the piece A = the captured piece disappearing

- another possible variation - "...If there is no possible legal movement, the piece A occupying X disappears" would be Circe-Xa, it means that if there is not possible legal movement of the piece A, it is annihilated and B is reborn on X

'iX' or 'aX', respectively determine the 'immunity' or 'annihilation' of the piece B whose Circe-rebirth square X can't be legally vacated ('~X' determines what happens with B).
'Xa' determines the 'annihilation' of the piece A if it can't legally vacate X, where the piece B should be Circe-reborn ('X~' determines what happens with A).

Indexes 'i' and 'a' might be replaced by any other symbols but their meaning seems pretty fundamental for Circe-family.
 
   
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(12) Posted by Diyan Kostadinov [Tuesday, Jun 11, 2013 11:21]; edited by Diyan Kostadinov [13-06-11]

Yes, Nikola, I understand your suggestions and they looks logical. Actually here is important also the opinion of the programmers which of the pointed variations can be programed and which not, because it is important for the future development of the idea.
By the way - the usage of indexes looks little bit complicated. Probably will be more understandable using of some name (such as Circe/ Circe strict etc. in similar way)

By the way - the article about Circe X in my website KoBulChess.com is now updated with one nice example by Paul Raican wo present some possibilities of Circe X in Proca retractor.

Here is the direct link: http://kobulchess.com/en/news/7-2011-07-31-17-09-09/281-chess-composition-fairy-condition-circe-x.html

And this is the Paul's Proca Retractor example:

(= 2+5 )

Circe X, Proca Retractor (-2) & #1

1.Kf2xPg3(wRg7>a7, bPg7)! g4-g3+ 2.Pf7xSg8=R(wRg8>g7, bSg8) &
1.Pf7xSg8=Q(wQg8>d5, bSg8)#
 
 
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MatPlus.Net Forum General New type of Circe