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MatPlus.Net Forum General Record for the longest helpmate, in an illegal position?
 
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(21) Posted by Arno Tungler [Monday, Jan 27, 2020 15:03]; edited by Arno Tungler [20-01-28]

UNFORTUNATELY I EDITED THE ENTERED POSITION INSTEAD OF DOING A REPLY. PLEASE IGNORE THIS MESSAGE...

Deleted by mistake...
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18619
(22) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Monday, Jan 27, 2020 19:50]

This is much shorter:
1.Kh3-h4 Le4-d5 2.Kh4-h5 Ld5-e4 3.Lf2-g1 Le4-d5 4.Le1-f2 Ld5-e4 5.Ld2-e1 Le4-d5 6.Lc1-d2 Ld5-e4 7.Lb2-c1 Le4-d5 8.La3-b2 Ld5-e4
9.Lb4-a3 Le4-d5 10.La5-b4 Ld5-e4 11.Lg5-h4 Le4-d5 12.Lb6-a5 Ld5-e4 13.Lh6-g5 Le4-d5 14.Kh5-h6 Ld5-e4 15.Kh6-h7 Le4-d5 16.Kh7-g8 Ld5-e4
17.La7-b6 Le4-d5 18.Lg7-h6 Ld5-e4 19.Lb8-a7 Le4-d5 20.Lf8-g7 Ld5-e4 21.Kg8-f8 Le4-d5 22.Kf8-e8 Ld5-e4 23.Ke8-d8 Le4-d5 24.Kd8-c8 Ld5-e4
25.Kc8-b8 Le4-d5 26.Kb8-a8 Ld5-e4 27.La7-b8 Le4-d5 28.Ka8-a7 Ld5-e4 29.Ka7-a6 Le4-d5 30.Lb6-a7 Ld5-e4 31.La5-b6 Le4-d5 32.Ka6-a5 Ld5-e4
33.Ka5-a4 Le4-d5 34.Lb4-a5 Ld5-e4 35.La3-b4 Le4-d5 36.Ka4-a3 Ld5-e4 37.Ka3-a2 Le4-d5 38.Ka2-b1 Ld5-e4 39.Lb2-a3 Le4-d5 40.Lc1-b2 Ld5-e4
41.Kb1-c1 Le4-d5 42.Kc1-d1 Ld5-e4 43.Ld2-c1 Le4-d5 44.Le1-d2 Ld5-e4 45.Kd1-e1 Le4-d5 46.Ke1xf1 Ld3-e4 47.Kf1xe2 Le4-d3 48.Ke2-e1 Ld5-e4
49.Ke1-d1 Ld3-f1 50.Lg1-h2 Le4-d3 51.Lf2-e1 Lf1-e2#
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18621
(23) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [Monday, Jan 27, 2020 21:01]; edited by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [20-01-27]

I appreciate the computer testing Olaf, I send my gratitude.

Just to bring it all together as for everyone's convenience:

h#97, C+ For Length (Duals To Be Ignored)
After Otto Blathy And Karl Fabel
(= 15+29 )


One Of Many Solutions (I have copy pasted yours]): 1.Kg6-h7 Lg4-h3 2.Kh7-g8 Lh3-g4 3.Lf2-g1 Lg4-h3 4.Lg7-h8 Lh3-g4 5.Lf8-g7 Lg4-h3 6.Kg8-f8 Lh3-g4 7.Kf8-e8 Lg4-h3 8.Ke8-d8 Lh3-g4 9.Kd8-c8 Kh1xg1 10.Le1-f2 Kg1-h1 11.Ld2-e1 Lg4-h3 12.Lc1-d2 Lh3-g4 13.Lb2-c1 Lg4-h3 14.Lf2-g1 Lh3-g4 15.La3-b2 Lg4-h3 16.Lb4-a3 Lh3-g4 17.La5-b4 Lg4-h3 18.Lb6-a5 Lh3-g4 19.La7-b6 Lg4-h3 20.Lb8-a7 Lh3-g4 21.Kc8-b8 Lg4-h3 22.Kb8-a8 Lh3-g4 23.La7-b8 Lg4-h3 24.Ka8-a7 Lh3-g4 25.Ka7-a6 Lg4-h3 26.Lb6-a7 Lh3-g4 27.La5-b6 Lg4-h3 28.Ka6-a5 Lh3-g4 29.Ka5-a4 Lg4-h3 30.Lb4-a5 Lh3-g4 31.La3-b4 Lg4-h3 32.Ka4-a3 Lh3-g4 33.Ka3-a2 Lg4-h3 34.Ka2-b1 Kh1xg1 35.Le1-f2 Kg1-h1 36.Ld2-e1 Lh3-g4 37.Lc1-d2 Lg4-h3 38.Kb1-c1 Lh3-g4 39.Kc1-d1 Lg4-h3 40.Lf2-g1 Kh1xg1 41.Le1-f2 Kg1-h1 42.Kd1-e1 Lh3-g4 43.Ke1xf1 Lg4-h3 44.Kf1-e1 Lh3-g4 45.Ke1-d1 Lg4-h3 46.Kd1-c1 Lh3-g4 47.Kc1-b1 Lg4-h3 48.Kb1-a2 Lh3-g4 49.Lf2-g1 Kh1xg1 50.Ka2-a3 Kg1-f1 51.Ld2-e1 Kf1xe1 52.Ka3-a4 Ke1-d1 53.Lb2-c1 Kd1xc1 54.Lb4-a3 Kc1-d1 55.La3-c1 Lg4-h3 56.La5-b4 Lh3-g4 57.Ka4-a5 Lg4-h3 58.Ka5-a6 Lh3-g4 59.Lb6-a5 Lg4-h3 60.La7-b6 Lh3-g4 61.Ka6-a7 Lg4-h3 62.Ka7-a8 Kd1xc1 63.Lb4-a3 Kc1-b1 64.Lb8-a7 Kb1-a2 65.Ka8-b8 Ka2xa3 66.La5-b4 Ka3-a4 67.Kb8-c8 Ka4-b5 68.Kc8-d8 Kb5-a6 69.Kd8-e8 Ka6-b7 70.La7-b8 Kb7xb8 71.Ke8-f8 Kb8-c8 72.Kf8-g8 Kc8-d7 73.Kg8-h7 Kd7-e8 74.Lg7-f8 Ke8xf8 75.Lh8-g7 Kf8-f7 76.Kh7-h8 Kf7-g6 77.Kh8-g8 Lh3-g4 78.Kg8-f8 Kg6-h7 79.Kf8-e8 Kh7-g6 80.Ke8-d8 Kg6-h7 81.Kd8-c8 Kh7-g6 82.Kc8-b8 Kg6-h7 83.Kb8-a7 Kh7-g6 84.Ka7-a6 Kg6-f7 85.Ka6-a5 Kf7-e8 86.Ka5-a4 Ke8-d7 87.Ka4-a3 Kd7-c8 88.Ka3-b2 Kc8-b7 89.Kb2-c1 Kb7-a6 90.Kc1-d2 Ka6-b5 91.Kd2-e1 Kb5-a4 92.Ke1-f2 Ka4-b3 93.Kf2xg2 Kb3-a2 94.Kg2-f1 Ka2-b1 95.Bg3-g2 Kb1-c1 96.g2-g1L Kc1-d1 97.Lh4-f2 Lg4-h3#

To Arno-As cooked as your problem is, as shown by Olaf, it is a very nice extension try. It will very hard to extend my #97. It took my forever myself to even think of giving White an extra bishop. My setup just barely allows for the kings to swap around, which was and is another difficult factor in making a record length illegal problem.
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18622
(24) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Monday, Jan 27, 2020 22:05]

The solution can be seen there via autoplay:
https://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/P1372242
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18623
(25) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [Monday, Jan 27, 2020 22:41]; edited by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [20-01-27]

Many thanks. What makes my problem worthy of being on the database, in your opinion, Olaf?
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18624
(26) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Monday, Jan 27, 2020 23:50]

Nothing, because every published problem should be added to the PDB.
I add problems I like, especially I like records. There is no matter of taste to find the best and it is amazing to see what can be done at the chessboard.
The PDB collects all problems despite of quality or soundness. At the moment there are 431102 problems, 28187 of them cooked.
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18625
(27) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [Tuesday, Jan 28, 2020 03:11]; edited by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [20-01-28]

I understand that. Also, I've added my first problem into the Schwalbe PBD! It's an old, but somewhat unknown, classic that should already have been in the database: https://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/P1372243. I have taught myself German notation, so I am able to go through PBD problems like breeze. Typing it out is still a bit cumbersome for me, but I will get there eventually.
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18626
(28) Posted by Arno Tungler [Tuesday, Jan 28, 2020 09:28]; edited by Arno Tungler [20-01-28]

Thank you, Olaf, yes, I overlooked that the wPe2 must also be protected. So another try! [EDIT: As I now see, this is a great joke - h# in 1.5!! Still, you probably get the idea. Will try to find a better version...]

(= 14+32 )

h#118 (??)

The start is with 1... Kh1 2. Bg1 Kxg1 3. Bf2+ Kh1 4. Bg1 Ba2 5. Bde1 Bb3 6. Bcd2 Ba4 7. Bbc1 Bb5 8. B3b2 Ba6 9. B4a3 Bc8 10. B5b4 Bd7 11. B6a5 Be8 12. B7b6 Bf7 13. B8a7 Kxg1 14. Bf2+ Kh1 15. Bde1 Be8 16. Bcd2 Bf7 17. Bg1 Kxg1 20. Bbc1 Bxg6+ 21. Kxg6 Kh1 Then all goes similar to the solution found by Olaf until possibly 61.Kxf1 fxg4! 62. Ke1 Kg1 and at the end the shortest could be something like 113. Kxg2 … 114. Kh1 Kd1 115. g2 Ke1 116. g1=S Kf1 117. Sxe2 Bxe2 118. Bh2 Bxf3# Could also be some moves less, will see, what Gustav says to that...

@James: One small point - at least you can move the bK to g8 and add wRh8 and wPh7 with one move more.
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18627
(29) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Tuesday, Jan 28, 2020 13:22]

New world record: Cook is 78 times faster than the intended solution.
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18628
(30) Posted by Arno Tungler [Tuesday, Jan 28, 2020 15:52]

No, Olaf! I sent once a complicated direct more-mover with many unusual fairy pieces to Hans Gruber for feenschach. He answered me quickly that the problem was cooked - the white king was in mate in the initial position!!
 
 
(Read Only)pid=18629
(31) Posted by Arno Tungler [Tuesday, Jan 28, 2020 15:54]

Now I got hopefully a better idea...

(= 14+32 )

h#110 (??)
White moves

The start is with 1... Kh1 and now Black needs to make sure that White can move to g1 after the white bishop is captured on g6 (after capturing h7) 11. Bfe1 Kxg1 12. Bf2+ Kf1 13. Bg1 Kxg1 14. Be1 Bg8 15. Bcd2 Bxh7 16. Bbc1 Bxg6+ 17. Kxg6 Then all goes similar to the solution found by Olaf until possibly 61.Kxd1 Kf1 62. Ke1 Kg1 and at the end the shortest could be something like 102. Kxg2 … 103. Kxh3 Kd1 104. g2 Ke1 105. g1=S Kf1 106. Sxf3 exf3 107. ~ Kg1 108. e2+ Kh1 109. Bf2 Bxe2 110. Bg3 Bf1# Could also be some moves less, ... what does Gustav say??
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18630
(32) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 00:59]

It is a h#101.
1... Kh2-h1 2.La7-b8 Lb1-a2 3.Lb6-a7 La2-b1 4.La5-b6 Lb1-a2 5.Lb4-a5 La2-b1 6.La3-b4 Lb1-a2 7.Lb2-a3 La2-b1 8.Lc1-b2 Lb1-a2 9.Ld2-c1 La2-b1 10.Le1-d2 Lb1-a2 11.Lf2-e1 Kh1xg1 12.Le1-f2 Kg1-f1 13.Ld2-e1 La2-b1 14.Lf2-g1 Kf1xe1 15.Lc1-d2 Ke1-f1 16.Lb2-c1 Lb1-a2 17.Ld2-e1 Kf1xe1 18.Lc1-d2 Ke1-f1 19.Ld2-e1 La2-b3 20.La3-c1 Lb3-a4 21.Lb4-a3 La4-b5 22.La5-b4 Lb5-a6 23.Lb6-a5 La6-c8 24.La7-b6 Lc8-d7 25.Lb8-a7 Kf1xe1 26.Lc1-d2 Ke1-f1 27.Ld2-e1 Ld7-e8 28.La3-c1 Le8-f7 29.Lb4-a3 Lf7-g8 30.La5-b4 Kf1xe1 31.Lc1-d2 Ke1-f1 32.Ld2-e1 Lg8xh7 33.La3-c1 Lh7xg6 34.Kh5xg6 Kf1xg1 35.Kg6-h7 Kg1-h1 36.Kh7-g8 Kh1-g1 37.Lc1-d2 Kg1-h1 38.Bh6-h5 Kh1-g1 39.Lg7-h6 Kg1-h1 40.Lf8-g7 Kh1-g1 41.Kg8-f8 Kg1-h1 42.Kf8-e8 Kh1-g1 43.Ke8-d8 Kg1-h1 44.Kd8-c8 Kh1-g1 45.Kc8-b8 Kg1-h1 46.Kb8-a8 Kh1-g1 47.La7-b8 Kg1-h1 48.Ka8-a7 Kh1-g1 49.Ka7-a6 Kg1-h1 50.Ka6-a5 Kh1-g1 51.Ka5-a4 Kg1-h1 52.Ka4-a3 Kh1-g1 53.Ka3-b2 Kg1-h1 54.Kb2-c1 Kh1-g1 55.Kc1xd1 Kg1-h1 56.Kd1-c1 Kh1-g1 57.Kc1-b2 Kg1-h1 58.Kb2-a3 Kh1-g1 59.Ka3-a4 Kg1-f1 60.Ld2-c1 Kf1xe1 61.Ka4-a5 Ke1-d1 62.Ka5-a6 Kd1xc1 63.Ka6-a7 Kc1-b1 64.Ka7-a8 Kb1-a2 65.Lb6-a5 Ka2-b3 66.Lb8-a7 Kb3-a4 67.Ka8-b8 Ka4-b5 68.Kb8-c8 Kb5-a6 69.Kc8-d8 Ka6-b7 70.Kd8-e8 Kb7xa7 71.Ke8-f8 Ka7-b7 72.Kf8-g8 Kb7-c8 73.Lg7-f8 Kc8-d7 74.Lh8-g7 Kd7-e8 75.Kg8-h8 Ke8-f7 76.La5-b6 Kf7-g6 77.Kh8-g8 Kg6-f5 78.Lg7-h8 Kf5-g6 79.Lf8-g7 Kg6-f5 80.Kg8-f8 Kf5-g6 81.Kf8-e8 Kg6-f5 82.Ke8-d8 Kf5-g6 83.Kd8-c8 Kg6-f5 84.Kc8-b8 Kf5-g6 85.Kb8-a7 Kg6-f7 86.Ka7-a6 Kf7-e8 87.Ka6-a5 Ke8-d7 88.Ka5-a4 Kd7-c8 89.Ka4-a3 Kc8-b7 90.Ka3-b2 Kb7-a6 91.Kb2-c1 Ka6-b5 92.Kc1-d2 Kb5-a4 93.Kd2-e1 Ka4-b3 94.Ke1-f2 Kb3-a2 95.Kf2xg2 Ka2-b1 96.Kg2xh3 Kb1-c1 97.Bg3-g2 Kc1-d1 98.g2-g1S Kd1-e1 99.Sg1xf3 Ke1-f1 100.Kh3-g4 Kf1-g2 101.La1-b2 Be2xf3#
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18633
(33) Posted by Arno Tungler [Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 02:28]

Thank you very much, Olaf! Surprising how much can be economized when you do all in the right order...
Anyhow more should be possible, so do not yet post on PDB!
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18634
(34) Posted by Arno Tungler [Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 03:58]; edited by Arno Tungler [20-01-30]

Now I got hopefully a better idea...

(= 14+32 )

h#110 (??)
White moves

The start is with 1... Kh1 and now Black needs to make sure that White can move to g1 after the white bishop is captured on g6 (after capturing h7) 11. Bfe1 Kxg1 12. Bf2+ Kf1 13. Bg1 Kxg1 14. Be1 Bg8 15. Bcd2 Bxh7 16. Bbc1 Bxg6+ 17. Kxg6 Then all goes similar to the solution found by Olaf until possibly 61.Kxd1 Kf1 62. Ke1 Kg1 and at the end the shortest could be something like 102. Kxg2 … 103. Kxh3 Kd1 104. g2 Ke1 105. g1=S Kf1 106. Sxf3 exf3 107. ~ Kg1 108. e2+ Kh1 109. Bf2 Bxe2 110. Bg3 Bf1# Could also be some moves less, ... what does Gustav say??
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18635
(35) Posted by Arno Tungler [Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 09:30]

For the history of the idea probably Shinkman is a nearer forerunner: https://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/P0569741
Maybe Olaf can ask Gustav also about that position... While it is labelled as "cooked" that is at least not right for the mentioned "dual" as talk is obviously not about a dual-free intention.
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18638
(36) Posted by Joose Norri [Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 15:16]

This reminds me slightly of the idea of the furthest position. Not very closely related perhaps.
https://timkr.home.xs4all.nl/chess2/diary.htm
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18641
(37) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 18:36]; edited by Olaf Jenkner [20-01-29]

The h#111 is C+.
1.Kg4-h5 Lb1-a2 2.Lb6-a7 La2-b1 3.La5-b6 Lb1-a2 4.Lb4-a5 La2-b1 5.La3-b4 Lb1-a2 6.Lb2-a3 La2-b1 7.La7-b8 Lb1-a2 8.Lb6-a7 La2-b1 9.La5-b6 Lb1-a2 10.Lb4-a5 La2-b1 11.La3-b4 Lb1-a2 12.Lc1-a3 La2-b1 13.Ld2-c1 Lb1-a2 14.Lc1-b2 La2-b1 15.Le1-d2 Lb1-a2 16.Ld2-c1 La2-b1 17.Lf2-e1 Lb1-a2 18.Le1-d2 La2-b1 19.Lg1-f2 Lb1-a2 20.Lf2-e1 La2-b1 21.Lh2-g1 Kh1xg1 22.Le1-f2 Kg1-f1 23.Ld2-e1 Lb1-a2 24.Lf2-g1 Kf1xe1 25.Lc1-d2 Ke1-f1 26.Lb2-c1 La2-b1 27.Ld2-e1 Kf1xe1 28.Lc1-d2 Ke1-f1 29.Ld2-e1 Kf1xe1 30.La3-c1 Ke1-f1 31.Lc1-d2 Lb1-a2 32.Ld2-e1 La2-b3 33.Lb4-a3 Lb3-a4 34.La3-c1 La4-b5 35.La5-b4 Lb5-a6 36.Lb4-a3 La6-c8 37.Lb6-a5 Lc8-d7 38.La5-b4 Ld7-e8 39.La7-b6 Le8-f7 40.Lb8-a7 Kf1xe1 41.Lc1-d2 Ke1-f1 42.Ld2-e1 Lf7-g8 43.La3-c1 Lg8xh7 44.Lc1-d2 Lh7xg6 45.Kh5xg6 Kf1xg1 46.Kg6-h7 Kg1-h1 47.Kh7-g8 Kh1-g1 48.Bh6-h5 Kg1-h1 49.Lg7-h6 Kh1-g1 50.Lf8-g7 Kg1-h1 51.Kg8-f8 Kh1-g1 52.Kf8-e8 Kg1-h1 53.Ke8-d8 Kh1-g1 54.Kd8-c8 Kg1-h1 55.Kc8-b8 Kh1-g1 56.Kb8-a8 Kg1-h1 57.La7-b8 Kh1-g1 58.Ka8-a7 Kg1-h1 59.Ka7-a6 Kh1-g1 60.Ka6-a5 Kg1-h1 61.Ka5-a4 Kh1-g1 62.Ka4-a3 Kg1-h1 63.Ka3-b2 Kh1-g1 64.Kb2-c1 Kg1-h1 65.Kc1xd1 Kh1-g1 66.Kd1-c1 Kg1-h1 67.Kc1-b2 Kh1-g1 68.Kb2-a3 Kg1-h1 69.Ka3-a4 Kh1-g1 70.Ka4-a5 Kg1-f1 71.Ld2-c1 Kf1xe1 72.Ka5-a6 Ke1-d1 73.Ka6-a7 Kd1xc1 74.Ka7-a8 Kc1-b1 75.Lb6-a5 Kb1-a2 76.Lb8-a7 Ka2-b3 77.Ka8-b8 Kb3-a4 78.Kb8-c8 Ka4-b5 79.Kc8-d8 Kb5-a6 80.Kd8-e8 Ka6xa7 81.Ke8-f8 Ka7-b7 82.Kf8-g8 Kb7-c8 83.Lg7-f8 Kc8-d7 84.Lh8-g7 Kd7-e8 85.Kg8-h8 Ke8-f7 86.La5-b6 Kf7-g6 87.Kh8-g8 Kg6-f5 88.Lg7-h8 Kf5-g6 89.Lf8-g7 Kg6-f5 90.Kg8-f8 Kf5-g6 91.Kf8-e8 Kg6-f5 92.Ke8-d8 Kf5-g6 93.Kd8-c8 Kg6-f5 94.Kc8-b8 Kf5-g6 95.Kb8-a7 Kg6-f7 96.Ka7-a6 Kf7-e8 97.Ka6-a5 Ke8-d7 98.Ka5-a4 Kd7-c8 99.Ka4-a3 Kc8-b7 100.Ka3-b2 Kb7-a6 101.Kb2-c1 Ka6-b5 102.Kc1-d2 Kb5-a4 103.Kd2-e1 Ka4-b3 104.Ke1-f2 Kb3-a2 105.Kf2xg2 Ka2-b1 106.Kg2xh3 Kb1-c1 107.Bg3-g2 Kc1-d1 108.g2-g1S Kd1-e1 109.Sg1xf3 Ke1-f1 110.Kh3-g4 Kf1-g2 111.La1-b2 Be2xf3#
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18644
(38) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 20:35]; edited by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: James Malcom) [20-01-29]

As always, thanks for the testing Olaf!

Amazing job Arno! An extension by a whole 14 moves! I make an offer of co-creation on it, if you like. Also, thanks for that Shinkman one, I remember it now. I have seen before and forgotten, so thanks for bringing to my eyes again. It has its similarities, but I would not consider it one of the role models for my #97.
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18645
(39) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 20:54]

I tested Shinkman's h#58 and changed the label in the PDB.
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18647
(40) Posted by ichai [Wednesday, Jan 29, 2020 21:36]

h7 seems to have no use
 
   
(Read Only)pid=18648

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MatPlus.Net Forum General Record for the longest helpmate, in an illegal position?