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MatPlus.Net Forum General Take&Make and its Antiform
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(41) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Wednesday, Sep 4, 2013 09:09]

It's so nice Jacques to care about poor Kevin. He's so gentle and polite, always listens and understands what the others try to say - brings so much joy to the forum.
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(42) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Wednesday, Sep 4, 2013 10:07]

@ Diyan

Well, it is not only a question of words...

You are an editor aren't you ?

You admit that you received and idea from Kevin.
Than, because of some reasons you did pay any more attention to this.
Than, after a year or so you get the same idea with a slight change.

Here you explain that the things are différent. Yes they are, but slightly, and your version does not seem to improve anything.

I can understand that Kevin does not feel good with that.

@ Nikola
I don't know how to read your post. Perhaps you are serious, perhaps you are kidding.
In any case I confirm : certainly Kevin is a nice person, and certainly you are too a nice person.
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(43) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Wednesday, Sep 4, 2013 10:07]; edited by Jacques Rotenberg [13-09-04]

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(44) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Wednesday, Sep 4, 2013 15:44]

I don't know Kevin but I believe he's a nice person. However, here at the forum he becomes possessed by a competitive discussion. With someone who wants to compete with him, it might be OK, although I don't find it interseting. But it is a nasty habit to impose a competition to anyone who does not want it. It is called bullying as I understand the word.
I was brutally bullied out of a discussion by Kevin in my last attempt, even before I came to a point which I wished to discuss.

If Kevin is interested to see some points from various angles, he should try to hear what are the others talking about. I don't see such interest here, only a trivial rhetorical exercise.
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(45) Posted by Diyan Kostadinov [Wednesday, Sep 4, 2013 16:05]; edited by Diyan Kostadinov [13-09-05]

Jacques: "You admit that you received an idea from Kevin" - where did you read this?? I never received idea from Kevin! You can see in my posts above that there are three possible anti-forms of T&M. I was planning to make "Anti Take & Make" the theme of 3rd Bulgarian Wine Tourney (at that time I didn't know about Kevin's suggestion about the other one anti-form of T&M). I was preparing some shemes and explanations of it and also of another possible anti-forms of T&M and sent them to the programmers and some famous fairy composers for their opinion.

Probably one of them told me that in the MatPlus forum Kevin Begley posted about ONE of the POSSIBLE anti-forms (which he call it Circe T&M and actually it is more like kind of "Circe" instead of anti-form of T&M because of reborns according his wishes). Thats why I contact him and tell him that we can make a join article about the possible anti-forms of T&M where he can explain his idea about Circe T&M (even that I was not agree that it should be "Circe" and explain it to him with some examples of the predecessor forms which are not Circe forms). He answer me that for him is important all this to be proved like type of Circe/Anti Circe which differ of my opinion and I decide to focus only to my anti-form of T&M (named Anti T&M) and I did not continue to discussed his "Circe T&M". Where I am unfair?? He had invented one anti-form of T&M, I invented another anti-form.

You says: "both (Anti T&M and Circe T&M) are "slightly different"... Actually they are not "so slightly different" if you look on them more deep - they lead to complete different possibilities!
Many fairy conditions are "slightly different" - so is this mean that nobody can involve new one? For example we can say about a lot of "Circe" conditions that they are "slightly different" because the only difference is the place of reborn of the captured piece. Is this mean that they are not original and interesting? If you look again to the definitions and examples with Anti Take & Make and Circe Take & Make (proposed by Kevin) and even more - if you composing with them you will see a lot of different possibilities!

I repeat - nobody say that "Circe T&M" is not Kevin's invention and I respect that (and him!). But this not give him "rights" to all other possible forms or anti-forms of T&M just because he was noted one of these anti-forms in some post (and even he not continue to develop his idea, nor composing with it). For example - if I say "all fairy conditions can have anti-forms", is this give me some future "rights"? Of course not. Each composer can involve new type condition and there is nothing wrong with it!

And really - I don't see the reason to continue this discussion. All can see and decide who is wrong and who is right. Probably the opinions will differ but there is nothing wrong with it - different people, different opinions.
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MatPlus.Net Forum General Take&Make and its Antiform