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MatPlus.Net Forum Promenade Clobber
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(1) Posted by Siegfried Hornecker [Monday, Sep 15, 2008 15:07]


There's a game or chess variant called Clobber which uses kamikaze vizirs, Haan and uncapturable pieces. See an understandable description in the Wikipedia article.

The author describes it as a new game but apart from the starting position and target I don't see any content that isn't in fairy chess. I think, it's nothing more than a chess mathematic problem.

Now on for your opinions: Own game or chess variant?
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(2) Posted by Juraj Lörinc [Monday, Sep 15, 2008 15:23]

Quite a few games are in fact chess variants in the wide sense. If we define chess variant as a game where pieces (fairy or usual) move according to chess-like rules (fairy or usual) on the board (fairy or usual) to reach aims (fairy or usual ), then Clobber is a chess variant.
However, many games have developed independently of chess and they do fulfil the definition only by chance. E.g. the Loyd's 15 may be formulated in terms of fairy chess as set of numbered one-colour vizirs with A->B stipulation.

There is a huge number of these variants available at well known site
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(3) Posted by Siegfried Hornecker [Monday, Sep 15, 2008 22:57]

Sorry to be offtopic, but it wasn't Loyd's 15. It was Chapman's 15.

So why does everyone uses fairy chess to make own games? I think, they always must be public domain since there's no real invention but that'd be another theme (Clobber is, by the way).
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(4) Posted by Neal Turner [Tuesday, Sep 16, 2008 13:04]

I would say that in order to be a Chess variant there's got to be some idea of 'checkmating' a 'king'.
As problemists have been so busy over the years inventing pieces for themselves, almost any piece from any game can be defined in terms of some fairy piece or other, but just because the pieces move like (fairy) chess pieces doesn't make the game a chess variant.
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(5) Posted by Axel Gilbert [Tuesday, Sep 16, 2008 23:06]

It reminds me that I once had the idea to describe draughts (or checkers) as a variant of chess. The aim, for instance, would have been to solve draughts problems with popeye or Winchloe. Actually it takes a lot of fairies to build draughts out of chess, so I gave it up, but I still like the idea that's it's possible...
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(6) Posted by Michael McDowell [Wednesday, Sep 17, 2008 09:50]

Surely there is no such thing as a draughts problem. All draughts compositions are the equivalent of chess studies - wins or draws. To qualify what Neal said, problems (i.e. with a stipulation in a specified number of moves) are only possible where there is a royal piece whose capture ends the game immediately. To me the lack of such a piece disqualifies draughts from being classed as a chess variant.
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(7) Posted by Juraj Lörinc [Wednesday, Sep 17, 2008 11:39]

And what about fairy chess problems with different aims than checkmate? Checkers in fact end in stalemate (if no resigning would be possible) as the side with all pieces captured cannot move. Further there are problems aiming for capture(s), arrival on stipulated square, play of specific move, etc.
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(8) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Wednesday, Sep 17, 2008 13:28]

Well, I once did a chess problem that somewhat came close to draughts :-)
(SCHWALBE #194, 2002, Nr. 11467)
Stipulation: Plaster the board with black-field white bishops, add
wK+wS+sK. (Way then it was a2/b1/g8 but that's not very relevant.)
How many B you must remove so White can force mate?

Since nobody found the solution way then, give it a try :-)


P.S. And of course there is Original #2 at :-)
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(9) Posted by Joost de Heer [Thursday, Sep 18, 2008 20:14]

Draughts problems are equivalent to losing chess problems with the proper fairy pieces.
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(10) Posted by Neal Turner [Friday, Sep 19, 2008 12:30]

Even chess problems where the stipulation is not mate usually use the 'royal' attributes of the king to determine the play.
But my comments weren't so much about chess problems as about the specifications and rules of games and whether those rules make them a chess variant or not.
For instance under my argument Losing Chess wouldn't count as a chess variant!
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MatPlus.Net Forum Promenade Clobber