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MatPlus.Net Forum Helpmates Test your composing imagination
 
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(21) Posted by seetharaman kalyan [Monday, Sep 13, 2010 13:16]

<In a direct #3, You can show respectively echo Q/Q, N/N, and reciprocal Q/N and N/Q promotions in meredith form, using one white and two black pawns>

That might look repetitive. What would be more interesting would be two white pawns and two black pawns
 
 
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(22) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Monday, Sep 13, 2010 14:21]

Dear Michael, I am sorry if it looks that someone tries to impose his 'superior knolwedge'. I certainly do not know
very much but you have invited everybody to analyse your problem and present the results and opinion. And it was not
a waste of time at all.
(= 7+3 )

5 halfmoves would be enough to set the mate but that very shortness causes the try to fail, as well as wKf1.
1.h1S? a8S 2.Sxg3+ Qxg3(2... Qh2?? 3.S~) 3.tempo? Qc7#
A good try and 1 solution makes a puzzle more interesting but nowadays it would be unusual. Small adjustment (Pa7>d7
& Kc8>b8) gives 2 solutions. But the choice of placing bP is clearly inbuilt in the basic scheme:
(= 7+2 )


Enrichment of 3rd black move by selfblocks requires more material. Mechanical elimination of the cooks (one by one)
might require extra pieces:
(= 6+8 )

We may argue whether such enrichment is artistic or perhaps artificial in principle, but Michael's problem clearly shows a
master`s touch which justifies the economy.
 
   
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(23) Posted by Kevin Begley [Monday, Sep 13, 2010 19:11]

Michael,

>I bow to your superior knowledge.

Westerners too often misinterpret the bow as a sign of inferiority -- in reality, the handshake is much the greater concession.
That said, in keeping with a very dignified tradition, based upon mutual respect (rather than a show of disarmament), I bow in return...

Why do you take the matter of this pawn-shift so personally?

Your promotion mechanism is not exactly the wheel.
Anybody who has ever taken an interest in promotion themes (whether helpmates, or otherwise!) may be very familiar with this pattern.
Even amateurs may regard this as immediately apparent.
You had no cause to reduce this to petty personal rivalry, nor to infer that the observation is some measure of "superior (composing) knowledge."


>Sorry to have wasted your time.

Not at all -- I quite enjoyed your problem...
You managed to avoid several strong cooks, by remarkably economical means, leaving some excellent tries lingering.

Let us leave it at that.
 
   
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(24) Posted by Michael McDowell [Monday, Sep 13, 2010 20:33]

Apologies for not making it clear that my comment was a response, not to Nikola’s post, but to Kevin’s, which I (mis-?)interpreted as “this is old hat and has been done many times” (yes, the switch of pawn and its effect is simple, but I would still like to see a previous helpmate example, if one exists).

I thought the problem worth posting because I showed it to six or seven problemists, none of whom noticed the possibility of moving the pawn (nor apparently did any Problemist solvers, though again it may be the case that no-one thought it worth mentioning).

Nikola’s try play setting is an interesting offshoot. The starting point for my problem was an exact echo mate involving the selfblocking rook and two promotions to white knight. This, along with other required features, made up an entry for the Ukrainian tourney at Rio. Afterwards I noticed the possibility for adding black promotions to the basic matrix.

Apologies again if I caused offence to anyone. Kevin, as for “personal petty rivalry” I’m not the sort! I’m glad at least that everyone seems to have enjoyed the problem.
 
   
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(25) Posted by Marjan Kovačević [Tuesday, Sep 14, 2010 02:17]

This was the most inspiring post in a long time. Geoff wrote nice lyrics, (Marcos will add music for samba), Nikola composed intriguing versions, and each of us had some fun in trying to solve the puzzle. For sure, the problem itself was interesting enough to make us do so.
I especially like the fact that Michael was surprised with the answers, the same way as many of us were surprised with his explanation. It reminds us again and again about different perceptions and feelings of the author and his audience.
Perhaps the question itself (not the title of the post!) was misleading. I see nothing “unusual” about any dilemma composer could have between different possibilities of a single mechanism, even when the alternative is only one square away. It is rather something typical for composing. Furthermore, one could expect a solver to note such alternative only if it is a possible improvement, and this is not the case.
Michael inspired made me to offer an easier kind of puzzle for this forum, arising when a problem has no comment bellow the solution, and no well known theme: “What was the author’s idea?” The answers are often surprisingly different, especially when it is not a great piece of art.
Here is my puzzle. This single-phase problem was sent without any author’s comment. Neither solvers, nor the judge, noted what I thought was obvious and hopefully original main idea (theme). At the end, I came to the conclusion I was very subjective in perceiving the content. Now, this is a chance to measure again my own subjectivity, according to your answers about the author’s idea, and the difficulty of its realization:
Marjan Kovačević
Lob, Rochade-Europa 2008-09
(= 9+6 )
#2
1.Qb1! ~ 2.Scb3# 1... Bg2 2.Se4# 1... Rc4 2.e4#
1... Ba2 2.Sa2:# 1... Rb4+ 2.Scb3# 1... Kd2: 2.Qd3# 1... Be4 2.Se4:#
 
   
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(26) Posted by Geoff Foster [Tuesday, Sep 14, 2010 07:01]

There are two white masked batteries (the masking pieces are the Bd5 and Rg4).
The key move is a departure from e4.
The Bd5 and Rg4 can then move across e4 (the critical square), unmasking a battery and allowing the front piece of the battery to shut-off both both black pieces by playing to the critical square.
 
   
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(27) Posted by Kevin Begley [Tuesday, Sep 14, 2010 11:06]; edited by Kevin Begley [10-09-14]

Geoff describes, quite succinctly, what I suppose was your original idea...
However, it's possible that the batteries are merely a mechanism -- the original concept might have been as simple as:

A vacates critical square X,
1...b passes over X, 2.B moves to X#
1...c passes over X, 2.C moves to X#

No, on second thought, what you've achieved goes well beyond this... I very much doubt this was your intent [the double-shutoffs are key]
So, now I guess your intent was to turn the Nowotny interference inside-out... such that two distinct interferences (of both black units) occur on the mating moves (rather than on one key move).

This is a remarkable problem -- and, the more I study it, the more I like it!

I'm becoming quite puzzled how the judge arrived at the placement (it seems to deserve more than Lob).
I haven't studied this in enough detail, nor done any of the considerable research required, nor have I seen the full award...
Nevertheless, I do hope the judge gave some clear explanation for this placement.
 
   
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(28) Posted by Frank Richter [Tuesday, Sep 14, 2010 12:36]

Here is the comment:
"Maskierte Batterien sind nicht neu, diese beiden gefallen durch das vorhandene Fluchtfeld und einheitliche Batterieabzüge nach e4." (Franz Pachl)
Well, today it is difficult to get high awards with a single-phase twomover.
 
 
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(29) Posted by seetharaman kalyan [Tuesday, Sep 14, 2010 13:44]; edited by seetharaman kalyan [10-09-14]

@Nikola
Thoroughly enjoyed the three versions of the idea. Interesting to see the various possibilities in a scheme which I thought was limited in further enhancement. It was a lesson in composing. Thank you.
(BTW. the second diagram needs the black pawn f2 or g2 ! or was that a deliberate omission !!)
 
   
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(30) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Tuesday, Sep 14, 2010 15:19]; edited by Nikola Predrag [10-09-14]

It was certainly a lesson to myself. By coincidence, when this post was started I just have been analysing a helpmate with 2 pairs of matching promotions (S+R). Although the schemes are very different, I felt the need to extend my experience with promotions. Some 2 years ago I analysed two old but cooked Babsons (h=2 & h#3), that was the best lesson. Composer should have self-confidence and belief that he is able to deal with cooks and other constructional difficulties until perfection is achieved. Mostly it means spending a lot of time without satisfying result but not in vain, the experience itself will be precious in some other occasion.
I presented the version (6+8) mostly to show how the enrichment of the basic scheme could be rather artificial and not convincing, in my opinion. That should emphasize the perfection of Michael's work. Discussion about tastes and criteria is always interesting but not in this post any more, for Marjan asked a new question.
(2nd diagram needs bP at e2 or f2 - that was the topic)
 
   
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(31) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Tuesday, Sep 14, 2010 16:50]

About the nice 2# of Marjan

I would say :

3 w-batteries when there is no one one the diagram - but clearly, it is not enough

so paradoxical critical/anti-critical position of the same b-pieces about the same square :

in one variation both bB and bR are on one side of e4 and they are intercepted there
in the other variation they both are on the other side and still they are intercepted there !!

Has this been shown elsewhere in 2# ? (I know a 4# with this idea)
 
   
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(32) Posted by Marcos Roland [Tuesday, Sep 14, 2010 19:13]

Thank you kindly, Marjan, for the incentive! I promise you to prepare something inspired in the problem presented by Roberto Osorio in Rio last year, accompanying the melody of "Samba of one single note", by Tom Jobim. For release in Crete, if we can have there some "caipirinhas" with Milan! By the way, please, remember in your prays of your countryman, Dejan Petkovic. Our team, Flamengo, is in a bad way, close to the "relegation zone", and depends too much on him to save us!

About your problem, I'll study it tonight. I also enjoyed very much the discussion about Michael's fine problem, although I didn't have time to set up the positions in a board and move the pieces.
 
 
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(33) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Tuesday, Sep 14, 2010 21:10]; edited by Nikola Predrag [10-09-14]

This reminds me on the previous remarks about expecting Babson whenever bi-color promotions are present. Seeing Marjan's magic of interceptions, apparently simple, the encouraged spectator's fantasy might look for spectacular tries. Fairy realm would offer more possibilities but orthodox chess is not so generous. Both, spectacular tries and solutions, it's a rare achievement.
Switch of threat/mate in tries (with some analogy of refutations and dual as well) even I can construct but for a solution I can only choose one among few banal, offered by computer.
(= 9+5 )

#2 vv
1.Qxd5? (2.Se4#)
1...Rd4 2.e4#
1...Rxg3 2.Sf3#
1...Rg5!

1.Qxg4? (2.e4#)
1...Bxg2 2.Se4#
1...Be6!

1.e3!(?)
 
   
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(34) Posted by Marjan Kovačević [Wednesday, Sep 15, 2010 01:16]

Thanks to all! Already in the first answer, Geoff described in details the author’s idea. Masked batteries were just an incidental (unifying) detail, and my main aim was: 1. Key - simultaneous opening of lines of two black pieces - to allow: 1… Two defences - critical moves by both black thematic pieces – followed by: 2. Two mates - double shut-offs of the same black pieces, on the field vacated by the key-move.
As a whole, I saw in this short content something like a Double Mousetrap combination (in a White&Black arrangement) and I thought it hadn’t been done before. This went unnoticed by solvers, who complained about the key-move made from an attacked square. So, the classic patterns in their perception prevailed. On the other hand, the judge was concentrated on the play of masked batteries, as an unintended element.
(At the beginning, I hoped to use a weaker piece than WQ for the key-opening, but at the end I was very lucky to have any material left on the board for this task.)
My conclusion: this illustrates how difficult it is for composer to make others see what he wants them to see. It is much easier to achieve this kind of communication by using well known patterns (themes), than a new idea. Older and more popular patterns usually dominate in perception, and contradict with newly offered ones.
The aim of this post surely wasn’t to complain about the award. As Frank said, one shouldn’t expect any higher distinction with such an old-fashioned content today. However, I wanted this combination to be explained and discriminated. So, I offer to pay the yearly subscription to Mat Plus for another example of the same combination. The prize goes to the best entry (original or published) that I receive until the end of 2010 (no promoted or fairy pieces, no serious braking of the most important classic criteria). Send to: kovacevic.marjan@gmail.com.
 
   
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(35) Posted by Zalmen Kornin [Wednesday, Sep 15, 2010 12:11]; edited by Zalmen Kornin [10-09-15]

Michael: Neither I was trying to become some kind of ruler, my brief (enigmatic!?) remark was a prelude to a digression about an occasion when a similar dilemma occurred to me. It could also be showed with a twin , moving the black pawn. With 13 pieces maybe that would be my choice, but with a mere 11 pieces presentation, it appeared back then in this way (scrolling down until the end of the page) http://christian.poisson.free.fr/problemesis2005/in48trois.html

ps: If the choice was to have only one pair of promotions, like in a helpmate, in which the anathema of the repetition of moves would be of course imperative, I would prefer the echoed ... They are so much more spectacular for the audience ...
 
   
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(36) Posted by Kevin Begley [Wednesday, Sep 15, 2010 20:45]; edited by Kevin Begley [10-09-16]

Marjan,

I'm not necessarily complaining about the award, either.
[read: I am not prepared to dispute the placement, though my first instinct, after closer examination, favors something slightly higher.]

Nor do I mean to suggest that judges should tilt the balance too much in favor of originality.

[edit: originality already confers a higher award potential, which should provide a fair incentive for innovative composers.
But, when a problem shows a team of original, matching, paradoxical effects, I would not dismiss it as merely "single-phase."
If your thematic pair were split, and shown in two phases, should it not be (generally) considered to be of somewhat lesser value?]


I certainly hope you will continue to be so courageously original, regardless of modern award incentives.
Nothing proves, quite like original thematic content, that a genre remains vibrant (and fairly balanced).

[edit: I withdraw the remainder of my post... which was somewhat tangential to the subject of difficulty discerning intent.]
 
 
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(37) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Friday, Sep 17, 2010 04:59]; edited by Nikola Predrag [10-09-17]

Marjan's mechanism with 2 masked batteries looks perfect for this idea. Simple scheme (without set mates after the
captures of wQ) may be presented as a Meredith. But I perfectly understand the solvers that Marjan mentioned.

Seeing a Queen which may be captured without punishment, a solver tries to play with other pieces, then in despair
moves the Queen under even more attacs, even if such key would be a check. After that, a gentleman gives up, the
beast prevails, and damning the author, the miserable solver withdraws the attacked Queen to a safe square.

Here at the forum, we did not experience that 'pain', since the solution is so close to the diagram and stipulation,
that hardly anyone had a chance for solving it.
A strong feeling of strangely inversed Nowotny is the most pleasant effect of this problem (at least to me). It
seems that this effect should be supported by provided mates after 'Nowotny-captures' in the set-play. This would
hush up the solvers, if not the judges.
 
   
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(38) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Friday, Sep 17, 2010 05:43]; edited by Nikola Predrag [10-09-17]

removed
 
   
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(39) Posted by Kevin Begley [Friday, Sep 17, 2010 06:17]; edited by Kevin Begley [10-09-17]

Nikola,

I'm only troubled that your vacating unit is captured in one variation, whereas Marjan lures both units across the critical square by more subtle means.
Perhaps this is not a vital matter, given the theme, and its restrictions.
On the other hand, if this is allowed, it might become considerably easier to break this into two phases (both of which may involve capturing the vacating unit).

Furthermore, I happen to agree that the inversed Nowotny effect is the most interesting feature...
So, I can't help but assume something better might be achieved if we only dispense with the constraint requiring the key move to vacate the critical square.
 
   
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(40) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Friday, Sep 17, 2010 06:31]; edited by Nikola Predrag [10-09-17]

Yes, that's the price but I will not discuss it now for I asked Milan two erase my 2 previous posts. So I would like anyone who might see them in the meantime to forget it until Marjan decides about it.
 
   
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