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MatPlus.Net Forum General A stalemate task
 
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(1) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Saturday, Jan 1, 2011 16:13]

A stalemate task


(= 4+5 )


49. Self explaining. Already done? Probably!

Hauke
 
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(2) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Saturday, Jan 1, 2011 20:53]; edited by Sarah Hornecker [11-01-02]

Is 49 moves the record? I offer another setting with 49.

(= 5+6 )

SH, original

or

(= 4+6 )

SH, original

Q 22
R 14
B 11
P 2


Or:

(= 4+6 )

EDIT: As pointed out by the Krabbé item that Michael McDowell found, this is completely anticipated by Shinkman.

Q 20
R 14
B 13
P 2
 
 
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(3) Posted by Michael McDowell [Saturday, Jan 1, 2011 21:57]

The record seems to be 50.

Rob van der Plas (version by Joshua Green)

Published on Tim Krabbé's website 6th August 2002 (item 184)

(= 5+4 )

 
   
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(4) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Sunday, Jan 2, 2011 01:41]; edited by Sarah Hornecker [11-01-02]

More is possible in Madrasi + Kamikaze :-)

(= 7+7 )

SH, original

1...e7-e5 2.d5xe6 e.p. stalemate (54 moves taken, probably more is possible though, the settings above could add move moves, but this is just a demonstration.)
 
 
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(5) Posted by Cornel Pacurar [Sunday, Jan 2, 2011 02:25]; edited by Cornel Pacurar [11-01-02]

Actually, Joshua Green's OCD 2002 50-moves overall record and Hauke's MPF 2011 49-moves position, on one hand, and "Siegfried"'s 49-moves positions on the other, belong to two different groups: "with pawn promotions" the former and "without pawn promotions" the latter. For both, "legal position, no promoted men and White must stalemate" should also be added. As T.R. Dawson outlined in his "Ultimate Themes", "it is to be noted that any given task performance is strictly relative to the conditions under which it has been carried out".

I put Siegfried's name between quotes, above, because he has only rediscovered W.A. Shinkman's long-standing overall record for the second category (the third position is identical). I guess the challenge for you, Siegfried, would be to find the "more economic version of Shinkman's record" found by me 8 years ago today and mentioned by Tim Krabbé at the bottom of his #184 Open Chess Diary post! :-) (http://www.xs4all.nl/~timkr/chess2/diary_10.htm - sorry for the broken links, I no longer have access to that domain)

EDIT: For those interested, here is the table of records for this task, for miniature positions: http://www.chessproblems.ca/images/external/k-min.png
 
   
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(6) Posted by Cornel Pacurar [Sunday, Jan 2, 2011 02:38]

@ Siegfried: By the way, these are "Einzuger Rekorde" - only one move made by White, that is! :)
 
   
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(7) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Sunday, Jan 2, 2011 20:33]

It seems that you not only should "google" or "wiki"
before asking a stupid question, but, in chess, also "krabbe" :-)

Hauke

P.S. Cornel is right, of course, in stating that the side conditions
of a construction task are important. In this case, though, I see
no point why black promotions should be considered "unnatural" and
thus two records listed.
 
   
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(8) Posted by Cornel Pacurar [Sunday, Jan 2, 2011 22:06]

@ Hauke:

1. This is how the task was introduced to the rest of us by Tim Krabbé! "Several readers objected to counting a promotion as four different moves. Even if the difference between promotions led to some of the most beautiful problems ever composed (see Diagram of the Century ), there is a point to this objection - the four promotions of a pawn are the same movement. Perhaps there should be a separate record for promotionless move-killing.".

Not all problemists are ultra-purists and may not necessarily agree with this, maybe considering that "distinct White moves are readily recognized - moves of different men, moves of one man to different squares, promotions of one Pawn on one square to different pieces, are evidently different when obtained as direct moves. " (T. R. Dawson, Ultimate Themes, 1938). However, and to continue quoting T.R.D., "sufficient has been said, however, to make it clear that when we begin counting mates, or their echoes, or checks, or what-nots, in task problems, we must lay down precisely just which classes of position we propose to consider as different.". This is exactly what Tim Krabbé did, and we should respect that!

2. In the same "Ultimate Themes" it is stated:

"In addition to the categories determined by groups of force [..] there are some categories which apply more or less generally to all tasks, depending on various characteristics of chess positions.
[..]
(v) MOVES, in tasks based on maximum numbers of move, may have:
1. P-promotion differences counted as distinct, e.g., Pa8=Q,R,B,S, is 4 moves.
2. P-promotion differences not counted as distinct, or barred altogether.
"

To me, these are sufficiently good reasons to have two records listed, aren't they?!
 
   
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(9) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Monday, Jan 3, 2011 10:35]

*In this case* to me they aren't, but I won't begley the question :-))

Hauke
 
   
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(10) Posted by Cornel Pacurar [Monday, Jan 3, 2011 15:37]

@ Hauke: By all means, please feel free to elaborate on why “in this case” the path laid out by T. R. Dawson is not good enough for you!
 
 
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MatPlus.Net Forum General A stalemate task