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MatPlus.Net Forum Promenade h#3 Páros, György "Karacsonyi lap", 1932
 
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(1) Posted by Zalmen Kornin [Saturday, Jun 22, 2013 05:57]

h#3 Páros, György "Karacsonyi lap", 1932


(= 8+8 )
h#3 In this form it's cooked




(= 7+8 )
(v) h#3 now it's ok, and a wP spared

(= 6+6 )
(v) ok too, and another wP spared


(i know ti was a 'Fingerübung' by the youthfull Paros, but strangelly enough it arrived in that cooked form to an anthologie published in 1983 ...)
 
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(2) Posted by Kenneth Solja [Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 14:38]; edited by Kenneth Solja [13-06-23]

I checked the problems which are in Chess Problem Data Base and found out that Gyorgy Paros has made three different problems out this one
cooked problem. However I'm not a bit of suprised that most of these problems have been cooked since, because one has to remember that then was no computers, but you have check with your problems by solving (with or without help).

The one reason why there is so much extra material which might not needed at all, is just because of lack of computers. We have to remember that not every good composer was also a good solver although this was the case in the most of the cases.

In CPDB you can find four similar problems by Paros (they are all h#3): P0512696 was composed and published in 1932, P0517642 was perhaps composed at the same time, but published in Il Problema in 1932. Both these have been cooked. The third one: P1004653 was also published in Il Problema in 1933 and it was given Lob in the annual award of the magazine. The fourth one was published few years later: P0552775 was published Fairy Chess Review in 1937. The similarity of these four problems is striking.
 
 
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(3) Posted by Zalmen Kornin [Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 17:03]; edited by Zalmen Kornin [13-06-23]

post repeated sorry
 
 
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(4) Posted by Zalmen Kornin [Sunday, Jun 23, 2013 17:03]; edited by Zalmen Kornin [13-06-23]

Nice survey, thanks - "Karacsonyi lap" means 'Christmas Card', this was presumably a good piece for solving back then...


KS said :"The one reason why there is so much extra material which might not needed at all, is just because of lack of computers. (etc) " - Maybe, but not always with Pàros ... Later he was able to show his most striking ideas with exactly the material needed. But in 1932 everyone knew already that extra material (moreover white Pawns) brings always the danger of cooks - not the case with this one here (but this type of computer that cut material, I have not here - mine is able just to check the positions I submit him - it's the old Loyd-Stillingfleet Jonhson method, just much faster.)

me: "that cooked form to an anthologie published in 1983 ...)" - Exactly that version, not another one cooked or not - Curious, that in 1983 they could already check the problems for cooks, isnt? - That antology I referred was first published in Hungary in 1979, then in a German translation in 1983 - maybe that was the 'twilight period' between C+ or nothing ?!
 
   
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(5) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Monday, Jun 24, 2013 22:46]

The P0517642 is this :

Gyorgy Paros
Il Problema 1932
(= 11+12 )
h#3
with in fact two solutions :

1.Kd4 e×d5 2.K×e5+ Sc4+ 3.K×f6 Bd3‡
1.Kd4 e6 2.Ke5 Sc4+ 3.K×f6 e5‡

The 1st seems to be the intended one
(If you change the wPh3 to a bPg4 you get only the 2nd one !)

It is amazing that anyone could dare to build such a thing before the computer times !

A nice challenge might be to look for what can be built with this matrix.

a first attempt :

J. Rotenberg
after Paros
(= 5+6 )
h3# 2 solutions

1.S×e6+ K×h4 2.Sc5 Sc6+ 3.Kb5 Rb4‡
1.Kc5 R×h4 2.Kd6 Rh8 3.Ke7 S×f5‡
model mates and capture of the bRh4 in each sol
 
   
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(6) Posted by Zalmen Kornin [Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 05:55]

...I had a quite simple way to combinate two of Paros' own solutions in on e H#3 2 sols,

(= 7+8 )


1.Kd3-d4 Se3-g4 2.Kd4-c5 Rf3-c3 + 3.Kc5-d6 e4-e5 #
1.Qa8-c8 Kh4-g3 2.Qc8*f5 Se3-c2 + 3.Kd3*e4 Rf3-e3 #

(well, they are not harmonizing, and the second one still looks like a cook


"a first attempt" - Jacques, Yours for me seems to be pretty finished ...
 
   
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(7) Posted by Kenneth Solja [Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 16:46]

I have also made a couple of versions from Paros's 1932 published problem. I don't know how to add a diagram here so I can't show you my versions ..

Kenneth
 
   
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(8) Posted by Kenneth Solja [Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 16:57]; edited by Kenneth Solja [13-06-25]

Zalmen Kornin wrote: "that cooked form to an anthologie published in 1983 ...)" - Exactly that version, not another one cooked or not - Curious, that in 1983 they could already check the problems for cooks, isnt?"

I might be wrong but first micro-computers like Commodore 64, Apple and IBM PC were made in the 1980's and I guess that the solving programs for checking chess compositions wasn't in the top priority of programs.

I don't mean to under estimate mr. Paros in anyway and actually I like a lot some Paros' problems. Although many of Paros' problems are cooked when you take a look to CPDB. As Zalmen says those can be used (meaning which are correct) in the solving competitions (so I understood).
 
   
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(9) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 19:51]

@Kenneth
when you write a message, you have between "preview" and "submit" a blue interrogation mark, click on it, all is well explained.
 
   
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(10) Posted by Thomas Brand [Tuesday, Jun 25, 2013 23:46]; edited by Thomas Brand [13-06-25]

I was helpmate section editor of Die Schwalbe in the mid 1980th, and I remember it was hardly impossible for me to computer test H#3: There were some programs for Atari etc., usually testing direct mates.

Alybadix arose, but I had no access to that program (popeye came a little bit later for PCs) -- only sometimes I had the chance to test H#2 with 'Olli', dedicated hardware for fairy chess testing by Thomas Kühn. H#2 needed up to an hour (!), so I believe it was hardly impossible to computer check a huge number of H#>2 in 1983 for an anthology.
 
   
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(11) Posted by Zalmen Kornin [Wednesday, Jun 26, 2013 12:48]; edited by Zalmen Kornin [13-06-30]

"This is the genealogy of Ollie the Awaited the son of Herrchen Kühn ..."

Thomas: You got my point, and I got my answer!

Kenneth: Of course Paros is one of the all times best (From ten h# that I can quote as (... say ...) of lasting beauty, at least a half are by him ... (...and always without Ollie!)

"I had a quite simple way to combine two of Paros' own solutions in on e H#3 2 sols, " (PS 30 vi: I mean P0512696 + P0552775

G. PAROS (v) (= 7+9 )
H#3 2 sol


1.Kd3-d4 Se3-g4 2.Kd4-c5 Rf3-c3 + 3.Kc5-d6 e4-e5 #
1.Qa4*e4 + Kh4-g3 2.Qe4*f5 Se3-c2 + 3.Kd3-e4 Rf3-e3 #

(now it's almost passable - the 'e' P is pinned in one solution, then unpined, then half-pinned and finally mating, and it's aniquilated in the very start of the other one - that's already some interaction between both solutions...
 
 
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MatPlus.Net Forum Promenade h#3 Páros, György "Karacsonyi lap", 1932