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01-Oct-2019

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MatPlus.Net Forum General Web resources for economy records for chess tasks?
 
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(1) Posted by Rosie Fay [Tuesday, Jul 2, 2019 14:48]

Web resources for economy records for chess tasks?


Where on the web are there listed the economy records for various chess problem tasks? I already know of Dmitrij Baibikov's Length records in "Last single moves?" problems (Nov 2009) and Economy records in "Add unit(s)" problems.

Sir Jeremy Morse's Chess Problems: Tasks & Records gives the record-setting problems for many promotion tasks. Silvio Baier's Future Proof Games gives PGs attaining the tasks of combining various narrowly-specified themes. These are great resources, but economy is not within their scope.

I wondered what else there is online which broadens the scope of chess tasks covered.

In researching the matter myself, I have made some progress using PDB, but its search facility is limited. For example, you cannot restrict your search to problems which exhibit a phenomenon at least n times. (An exception is promotions, thanks to separate keywords for 2,...,8 promotions.)

Economy means the fewer units in the diagram, the better. With proof games, however, length-economy is more relevant: the shorter, the better.
 
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(2) Posted by Vitaly Medintsev [Tuesday, Jul 2, 2019 17:18]

Probably, some economy records could be found here - http://superproblem.ru/archive/S_record.html
(in Russian)
 
 
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(3) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [Wednesday, Jul 3, 2019 00:38]; edited by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [19-07-03]

Just out of curiosity, Rosie Fay, are you the same Rosie F. from Chess Stack Exchange?
 
   
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(4) Posted by Rosie Fay [Wednesday, Jul 3, 2019 08:25]

Yes, that's me. It seems to me that there is not much interest in either chess.SE or puzzling.SE on chess problems -- non-trivial ones, anyway. And it's these that I'm researching, so I thought I'd try here.
 
 
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(5) Posted by Rosie Fay [Wednesday, Jul 3, 2019 08:30]

Thank you for that link, Vitaly. There's certainly some interesting stuff there, and it's given me more ideas about the sort of phenomena chess problem fans are interested in. I didn't find any economy records, though.
 
   
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(6) Posted by Michael McDowell [Wednesday, Jul 3, 2019 09:24]

"Fewest units employed" is a rather naïve definition of economy. If a problem contained two cookstopping black pawns which could be replaced by a black queen, I doubt that many composers would regard the new setting as more economical.
 
   
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(7) Posted by Rosie Fay [Wednesday, Jul 3, 2019 11:21]

A fair point, Michael. And of course a rook is more economical than a queen; a minor piece more economical than a major piece, and a pawn more economical than a piece. And for some problem genres one might consider White economy and Black economy as separate criteria. But my OP wasn't intended to contain a discussion about the precise definition of economy, so I that's why I didn't go into details in that OP.
 
   
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(8) Posted by Michael McDowell [Wednesday, Jul 3, 2019 11:41]

My point was that the term "economy" is ambiguous, and you could avoid any confusion by referring to "chess tasks using the fewest number of units".
 
   
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(9) Posted by Vitaly Medintsev [Wednesday, Jul 3, 2019 12:12]

To (5)
I have found just one economy record :-)

Most economical Valladao task in:
directmates - http://superproblem.ru/archive/probl/N/Mcdowell-5x-1988.gif
selfmates - http://superproblem.ru/archive/probl/Sn/Thoma-s11-2007.gif
helpmates - http://superproblem.ru/archive/probl/H3/Oganesjan-h2-5-2014.gif
 
 
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(10) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Wednesday, Jul 3, 2019 12:21]

Also, "task". The broader "theme" has also its merits -
e.g. did you know that a "Roman" (neudeutsch) can be
shown with 4 units? Same goes for excelsior march.
Or think of modern "letter" themes.
Which theme constitutes a task is discussable (I would
certainly agree for excelsior) - in any case take
a peek in Speckmanns "Wenigsteiner" book to find an
astonishing wealth of themes already with 3 or 4 pieces.
 
 
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(11) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [Wednesday, Jul 3, 2019 12:24]

Generally, "economy" for me is to, whenever I have an idea, try to use the least amount of pieces that I can. I recently found a setting for a selfmate in 10 idea with just 6 pieces.


And welcome to the club Rosie F.! Just in case you don't know, because I was confuzzled myself for a while around here, here are a few terms commonly used around here. Aor in advance id you already know any of these!

n#-Means a normal checkmating problem as if if were a regular game of chess.

s#-Short for "selfmate"

h#-Short for "helpmate"

r#-Refers to "reflexmat" is a problem in which if either side can deliver mate right away they must

-If there is a "=" at they end instead of a "#," a stalemate or theorcitally drawn position is what is to be solved for instead.

Series-If this is attached to any of these problem terms, it means that one side makes a series of legal chess moves all by themselves before the other side makes a move that deals the final blow to to probl in any stipulated manner.


And, finally, here is another database if you didn't know about it-www.yacpdb.org/#static/home" target=_blank>https://www.yacpdb.org/#static/home
 
 
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(12) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [Wednesday, Jul 3, 2019 12:24]; edited by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [19-07-03]

Generally, "economy" for me is to, whenever I have an idea, try to use the least amount of pieces that I can. I recently found a setting for a selfmate in 10 idea with just 6 pieces.


And welcome to the club Rosie F.! Just in case you don't know, because I was confuzzled myself for a while around here, here are a few terms commonly used around here and the chess compositions community in general. Sorry in advance if you already know any of these!

n#-Means a normal checkmating problem as if if were a regular game of chess.

s#-Short for "selfmate"

h#-Short for "helpmate"

r#-Refers to "reflexmat" is a problem in which if either side can deliver mate right away they must.

-If there is a "=" at they end instead of a "#," a stalemate or theorcitally drawn position is what is to be solved for instead.

Series-If this is attached to any of these problem terms, it means that one side makes a series of legal chess moves all by themselves before the other side makes a move that deals the final blow to to probl in any stipulated manner.

A number after the "#" or "=" indicates the length of the problem.


And, finally, here is another database if you didn't know about it-www.yacpdb.org/#static/home" target=_blank>https://www.yacpdb.org/#static/home

I hope that this helps you!
 
   
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(13) Posted by Vitaly Medintsev [Wednesday, Jul 3, 2019 12:50]

Rewan,
if look for lesser amount of pieces you can specify this criterion in Chess Problem Database Server (https://pdb.dieschwalbe.de)
For example:
APIECES <= 7 means Total number of pieces less or equal than 7
WPIECES = 3 means Number of white pieces = 3
BPIECES = 2 means Number of black pieces = 2

By the way, the most of members of this forum are 'professional' chess composers/solvers.
We know about http://www.yacpdb.org/ :-)
 
   
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(14) Posted by Rewan Demontay (Real Name: J. Malcom) [Wednesday, Jul 3, 2019 12:54]

Thanks, and I was just putting that out for Rosie seeing as how they are new here.
 
 
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(15) Posted by Rosie Fay [Wednesday, Jul 3, 2019 15:06]

Thank you for the welcome. Though I have newly registered with this Mat Plus forum, I have been following it for a few years, and recognise some names as being problem composers -- Juraj Lörinc, Joost de Heer, Jacques Rotenberg. I didn't know that most of you here are composers! I'm a problem enthusiast, but composing is hard for me -- it's a matter of delightful luck if Popeye tells me there's just one dual-free solution line!

I am also familiar with PDB and indeed have contributed quite a few comments, most of them being solutions.

I have used YACPDB a few times but find its search engine even less suited to my wishes than PDB's.
 
   
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(16) Posted by Rosie Fay [Wednesday, Jul 3, 2019 15:29]

As for notation:

The 'n#' notation I have only encountered as a Genre in PDB -- in all other contexts it's just # with no letter to the left. I also note PDB Genres 2# and 3# when the convention is to put the aim before the length. Perhaps PDB does it that way because there's a problem with making a Genre begin with #?

For "serieshelp", "seriesself" and "seriesreflex", I am used to seeing sh, ss and sr. Popeye spells "series" at greater length as "ser-", presumably for consistency with ser-# for seriesmate and to avoid confusion with s for "self". PDB also uses "ser-". Are sh, ss and sr deprecated nowadays, then?
 
 
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MatPlus.Net Forum General Web resources for economy records for chess tasks?