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MatPlus.Net Forum Selfmates A. Pankratiev, H. Axt 60, Die Schwalbe 2003-05
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(1) Posted by Juraj Lörinc [Wednesday, Mar 9, 2011 08:28]; edited by Juraj Lörinc [11-03-09]

A. Pankratiev, H. Axt 60, Die Schwalbe 2003-05

I have found the following selfmate in the WinChloe:

Alexandr Pankratiev
H. Axt 60 JT 2003-05
(= 11+14 )

There is the following remark there: "ex 4° Prix, p.197, Die Schwalbe 214 (sept. 05)"

Can someone find why it was stripped of its distinction, please? I suppose it is because of some anticipation, as otherwise this is quite interesting piece of work. The solution:

1.Rhh7! [2.Qh8+ K×e6 3.Rf6+ Ke5 4.Rf2+ Ke6 5.Re2+ d×e2,B×e2,Be3‡]
1…h×g4 2.Qb5+ K×e6 3.Bd5+ Ke5 4.Bf3+ Ke6 5.B×g4+ B×g4‡
1…Sc3 2.Qb8+ K×e6 3.Sc7+ Ke5 4.Sb5+ Ke6 5.S×d4+ B×d4‡
(Read Only)pid=6753
(2) Posted by Harry Fougiaxis [Wednesday, Mar 9, 2011 09:19]

Yes, it was removed from the award because of the below anticipation:

Udo Degener
1 Pr Buletin Problemistic 1997
(= 9+12 )

1.Ba7! [2.Qb5+ Kd6 3.Bc5+ Kd5 4.Be3+ Kd6 5.Bf4+ Rxf4#]
1...e3 2.Qg8+ Kd6 3.Re6+ Kd5 4.Rxe3+ Kd6 5.Rxd3+ Rxd3#
1...Bh5 2.Qxb3+ Kd6 3.Sc4+ Kd5 4.Se3+ Kd6 5.Sxf5+ Rxf5#

Hemmo Axt writes: "Die bis ins Schema reichenden Analogien sind offensichtlich, und zudem ist die Degenersche Aufgabe auch noch die elegantere (weniger Steine, nur eine schwarze Batterie). Zu meinem Bedauern muss ich das Pankratjewsche Stück herausnehmen".
(Read Only)pid=6754
(3) Posted by Juraj Lörinc [Wednesday, Mar 9, 2011 11:02]

Thank you, Harry. Hmmm, interesting...

In my view, it would be very harsh to call this case anticipation. Actually, I have found both Degener's and Pankratiev's problems as 2 of total 4 results of the very specific WinChloe search and I was even tempted to formulate my question along lines "was it removed because of Degener's problem?" as it was by far the closest cousin.

Why harsh? Because the configuration of white lines is completely different in Pankratiev's problem, even if the White strategy is completely the same. There are hundreds of similar examples in helpmate field and often nobody speaks about anticipation (although in some cases yes).

But if H. Axt considered this just to be unworthy of prize (or any other distinction), I'd be ok with that. Just I would not call that anticipation.

What is your opinion?
(Read Only)pid=6755
(4) Posted by Harry Fougiaxis [Wednesday, Mar 9, 2011 12:52]

I would personally consider Pankratiev's composition as substantially anticipated by that of Degener. Furthermore, there's no new additional feature in Pankratiev's problem and it is technically inferior, which IMHO hardly leave some chance for a distinction.
(Read Only)pid=6757
(5) Posted by seetharaman kalyan [Thursday, Mar 10, 2011 19:19]; edited by seetharaman kalyan [11-03-10]

Pankratiev uses a different diagonal of the black king for one of the variations. I would feel nevertheless that they are only two different versions of the same idea. If I happened to find both versions, would I publish both? I am sure I would send only the better constructed one, which is what Degener's problem is - with mates from a single black battery.
(Read Only)pid=6759
(6) Posted by Dan Meinking [Friday, Mar 11, 2011 08:00]

I'm no selfmate judge, but I agree with Hemmo here. The UD predecessor shows the same basic idea and is better constructed. If AP's had some 'new' feature, it might qualify for a Commendation as "AP after UD".
(Read Only)pid=6761
(7) Posted by Frank Müller [Friday, Mar 25, 2011 19:50]; edited by Frank Müller [11-03-25]

withdraw my comment
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(8) Posted by Juraj Lörinc [Friday, Mar 25, 2011 20:09]

Actually, I have understood WinChloe is updated as necessary. The problem was published in the preliminary award, with 4th Prize awarded. However, in WinChloe there is no distinction above the diagram, while remark "ex 4th Prize" = "was 4th Prize, but it was removed" is mentioned in the field Comments. Therefore I see the current status as reflecting your exaplanation. Or did I get it wrong?
(Read Only)pid=6815
(9) Posted by Juraj Lörinc [Wednesday, Aug 24, 2011 17:11]

And here is the continuation of the story. Or rather a prologue and the continuation. In fact I have composed my problem given below before the first search in WinChloe and only then I have found the predecessors of the idea.

I have consulted a few fellow composers and finally decided that I may try my luck in the tourney to see the real degree of anticipation. I have sent it to the 2nd World Cup a few months ago together with both Degener & Pankratev problems for comparison.

And the result is...

Juraj Lörinc
Commendation 2nd World Cup 2011
(= 10+11 )
s#5 (10+11)

1.Sh5! [2.Qb8+ K×d5 3.Rd6+ Ke5 4.Rc6+ Kd5 5.R×c5+ B×c5‡]
1...Qf2 2.Qe8+ K×d5 3.Be6+ Ke5 4.Bg4+ Kd5 5.Bf3+ Q×f3‡
1...Se3 2.Qh8+ K×d5 3.Sf6+ Ke5 4.Sg4+ Kd5 5.S×e3+ B×e3‡
1...B×d3 2.Bf6+ Ke4 3.d6+ Ke3 4.Bg5+ Kf2 5.Qg2+ h×g2‡

The basic idea (Q moves to rear position, jump onto battery line and Siers battery mate enforecement) is the same, but my lines are all going down. Side variation is of interest as it adds another battery with queen as rear piece, even if the rest of its strategy is very different (i.e. almost none).
(Read Only)pid=7168

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MatPlus.Net Forum Selfmates A. Pankratiev, H. Axt 60, Die Schwalbe 2003-05