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MatPlus.Net Forum General Gosman-Seneca theme
 
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(21) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Tuesday, May 13, 2014 08:35]

As is, the wording supports for example a Ruchlis.
 
   
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(22) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Wednesday, May 14, 2014 11:40]

an example of Seneca theme with only one white line :

(= 12+4 )
2#
= Bishop-Lion
, = Nightrider


1…Nd6 2.Bf6‡

1.BLcf3+?
1…K×d5 2.g×h3‡
mais 1…Ke4!

1.BLce4+?
mais 1…K×d5!

1.Sb4! [2.Bf6‡]
1…Se4 2.BLcf3‡
1…Sd5 2.BLce4‡
1…Nh5 2.Bd6‡
1…Ne8 2.Sd3‡

1.Sf6? [2.Sd7‡]
1…B×g4 2.S×g4‡
1…Se4 2.BLcf3‡
mais 1…Nh5!

1.Sb6? [2.Sd7‡]
1…Se4 2.BLcf3‡
1…Nh5 2.Sc4‡
mais 1…B×g4!

1.Sf4? [2.Sg6‡]
1…Se4 2.BLcf3‡
mais 1…N×f4!
 
   
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(23) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Thursday, May 15, 2014 08:14]

Could somebody explain who and when (& where) began the use to add "Gosman" to the Seneca Theme ?
 
 
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(24) Posted by Eugene Rosner [Thursday, May 15, 2014 14:57]

Jacques-
see post (2) by Cornel
 
   
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(25) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Thursday, May 15, 2014 15:32]

Yes, I read it in time. But yet it is unclear.

What is written in name of Valeriu Petrovici leaves some questions, on one hand, there are some inaccuracies, and on the other hand there is a lack of details :
I quote :
"...
Still, a compromise was made, and the theme was entered in the official nomenclature as the "Gosman-Seneca Theme"! ..."

So I still ask : when ? where ? Who ?

I have never heard about such a discussion before.
 
   
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(26) Posted by Cornel Pacurar [Thursday, May 15, 2014 19:05]

Arno & Jacques – Very good, those are quite impressive finds!

Jacques – It is good to see, finally, the original and complete definition of the theme! What is the date of the BOE issue in which the match announcement was made? In “Componist” it is implied that the Romanian team received the #2 theme without a scheme or any other references, and that subsequently the France team was informed of the Gosman (January 1952) and Mari & Malpas (1926) predecessors. Please note that because of the 1926 Mari & Malpas problem, Gosman never considered his idea as original and, to my knowledge, made no such claims.

For the record, Valeriu Petrovici’s original text in Romanian is as follows:

“Aici autorul realizeaza o tema ce a devenit “originala” desi el n-a considerat-o astfel.
[Problem]
Deci, pe ansamblu, compozitia prezinta o buna omogenitate strategica. Problema aceasta isi duce viata ei obisnuita (adica anodina) pina in 1952, cand cu ocazia stabiliri meciului de compozitie dintre Romania si Franta, aceasta din urma propune la sectia #2, prin Camil Seneca (tot un roman, dar stabilit la Paris de prin 1924) ca proba de concurs, tocmai descrierea motivelor aratate la inceput (!) fara a arata vreo schema sau altfel de referinta, dar considerand (cu sau fara intentie constienta) ca idea este o prioritate franceza si ca avem de-a face deja cu tema... Seneca! Echipa Romaniei, care s-a dovedit mai temeinic informata, aduce insa la iveala atat anterioritatea lui Gosman, cat si o mult mai veche diagrama (din 1926 a lui A. Mari si L. Malpas din L’Echiquier), care aratau ca totul e deja stiut; totusi, se ajunge la un compromisul ca avem de-a face cu o tema “Gosman-Seneca” si asa a ramas in nomenclatorul official.”

Beyond this, it is unknown to me as to “when? where? who?”. I can tell you, however, that in every Romanian book and magazine I have and the theme is mentioned, it is mentioned as “Gosman-Seneca”. In the context of your questions, probably the most interesting new information I can provide you with at this point in time comes from Emilian Dobrescu and Virgil Nestorescu’s “Compozitia Sahista in Romania” (Editura Stadion, 1973). In this collection of Romanian chess problems, Dobrescu and Nestorescu presented Gosman and Seneca’s compositions side by side, and wrote the following (page 45):

“Tema Gosman-Seneca este exemplificata in cele doua exemple care urmeaza: prima a fost publicata in ianuarie 1952, a doua a fost propusa ca tema in meciul Romania-Franta F.S.G.T. din acelasi an. Avind in vedere ca ambele lucrari au fost create in mod independent pe baza aceleeasi idei, adoptam aceasta denumire comuna, care ni se pare cea mai justa”.

The translation of the last phrase is: “Given that both compositions were created independently based on the same idea, we adopt this combined name, which seems the most fair”.
 
   
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(27) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Friday, May 16, 2014 17:47]

Cornel,

due to all the news we have here, some different things are sure, some others are probable :

It is said that the Gosman was published in January 1952.
The announcement of the France-Roumanie with the definition of the Seneca Theme and the example of Seneca was given in the issue of Mai 1952 of the BOE
Parallele 50 was a great magazine with a good chess chronicle. It was famous in France among problemists.

if we put aside the question of reliability of dates, it is probable that Seneca knew the problem of Gosman. I show it (after your indications - I could not find it in Winchloe -) :

Gosman Parallele 50, January 1952
(= 9+8 )
2#

1.Sa5! [2.Sb7‡]
1…e6 2.Sf7‡
1…e5 2.Sf5‡
1…S×b5 2.Rd5‡
1…B×a5 2.Bc5‡
1…Rd7,Rb8 2.R(×)d7‡

I hope I'll have time later to explain more, but I think the good name remains "Seneca theme"
 
   
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(28) Posted by seetharaman kalyan [Friday, May 16, 2014 20:21]

Shall we say... "Much ado about nothing!" It is such a simple theme, with worthless tries defeated by king moving to the flight granted. No wonder it was ignored shortly after its discovery.
 
   
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(29) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Saturday, May 17, 2014 23:06]

Not far to think like you...
But "nothing" it a bit too much.
And also, I think this discussion may be useful.
 
   
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(30) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Sunday, May 18, 2014 21:26]; edited by Jacques Rotenberg [14-05-18]

let's say you want to describe the Gosman, how would you do ?

I guess anti-Somov + Somov (=Isaev) twice.

You would not have described it the way Seneca did.

The Seneca theme asks for a duel with Somov mates in a logical form, he provided a good example of what he wanted.
Even if the idea was inspired by the Gosman's problem, I can't see how, after more than 20 years, Dobrescu and Nestorescu had a valid claim on that.
For the record, Gosman participated in this tournament.
 
 
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(31) Posted by seetharaman kalyan [Monday, May 19, 2014 19:48]; edited by seetharaman kalyan [14-05-19]

@Jacques Rotenberg:
"Much ado about nothing" is just an expression commonly used based on the title of Shakespear play. Though it is in fact "something" the tries are just cook tries and not involving any big logic!. After all if you shut off a white line, the opposing King will use that. Most of the Somov-mate problems has this feature.
 
   
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(32) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Monday, May 19, 2014 22:43]

Thank you to fill a gap in my very weak knowlegde of Shakespeare !
About "logical tries" : the early fifties were the years of the beginning of "tries" in the 2# field.
Before, you had almost only actual plays.
The only field with "tries" were the moremovers with the so-called "new german school" with its "logical" structure.

The Seneca theme was an attempt to mix 3 notions that Seneca loved :

- strategics - with the Somov mates
- duels
- tries and "logical structure"

In that it was well ahead of its time.

In fact, your contestation of the interest of these "tries" shows more than many words how the conception of Seneca was original, and explains well why the adding of the name "Gosman" to his theme is a nonsense
 
   
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(33) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Tuesday, Jun 3, 2014 03:27]

Some early Seneca theme :

Jens Peter Pedersen
Tijschrift van den Nederlandschen Schaakbond
1933
(= 8+7 )
2#

1.Sf3+? K×e3!
1.S1c2+? Kc3!, Kc5!

(also :
1.S3c2+? Kc5!
1.Sf5+? K×d5+!, Ke5+!)

1.Bc6! [2.Qd5‡]
1…Sc3 2.S1c2‡
1…S×e3 2.Sf3‡
1…Se5 2.Sf5‡
1…Bc4 2.S3c2‡
1…Sf4/Se7 2.Qh8‡
1…Rb5 2.Rc4‡
1…Qc5 2.Q×c5‡

Excellent! : Seneca theme almost twice

Vladimir A. Bron
Il Problema
1933
(= 8+12 )
2#

1.Sa4! [2.S×c3‡]
1…Rd3 2.Sd6‡
1…Re3 2.Sd2‡
1…Rf3 2.Bf5‡
1…Rg3 2.Q×f4‡
1…R×c4+ 2.R×c4‡

Almost Seneca theme (with no thematic tries)

Cyril S. Kipping
Chess World
1946
(= 10+8 )
2#

1.Ce3+? Rc5!
1.C2f4+? Rd6!

1.f7! [2.f×e8=D/F‡]
1…Fc5 2.Ce3‡
1…Fd6 2.Cf4‡
1…Cd6 2.Ce5‡
1…Cf6/Cc7 2.T(×)c7‡
1…Fe7 2.C×e7‡
1…D×h4+ 2.C2×h4‡

1.Dd4? [2.Ce3‡, 2.Cf4‡, 2.Ce5‡, 2.Dd5‡] Dh5!

Seneca Theme.
 
   
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(34) Posted by Jacques Rotenberg [Thursday, Jul 17, 2014 02:11]

Sorry the diagram of post 22 is incorrect : in the solution, 1...Sd5 is not a self-block !
here seems to be a correct version :

(= 10+2 )
2#
= Lion
= Nightrider

1.LIe3+? K×d4!

1.LIf2+!?
1…K×d4 2.LI×c2‡
1…Ke3!

1.LIh4! [2.LIh7‡]
1…Se3 2.LIf2‡
1…Sd4 2.LIe3‡

1.N/K×c2??
1.LIa1? block S×a1!
1.Nb8? [2.Nf6‡] Se3!
1.LIb6? [2.LIa7‡] Sb4!
 
 
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MatPlus.Net Forum General Gosman-Seneca theme