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| | Page: [Previous] [Next] 1 2 | | (1) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Monday, Feb 23, 2009 15:59] | Problems for the Masses?
In any art form you know the phenomenon that there is
kunst, e, avantgarde for the pundit and
and kitsch, u, pop for the masses. (Sorry, I had to
use German termini mostly.)
But: I've never seen a pop problem. Do you know one? :-)
Hauke
| | | (2) Posted by [Monday, Feb 23, 2009 18:36]; edited by [09-02-23] |
Hauke asks:
>In any art form you know the phenomenon that there is
>kunst, e, avantgarde for the pundit and
>and kitsch, u, pop for the masses. (Sorry, I had to
>use German termini mostly.)
>
>But: I've never seen a pop problem. Do you know one? :-)
Most of them seem to be. Art problems, however, are only rarely seen
these days. Perhaps they've all been done, like two-move miniatures.
Art needs some kind of canon. In painting, we have royal academies who set and
develop such canons. In the problem world ... well, there seem to be far too
many tourney judges who feel they have to apologize when they pronounce judgement.
That somehow suggests a very low level of 'art' ... no direction, no
ideal, no discrimination, everything a kind of general mish-mash, and everything
worthy of a prize, except that there only are five of them, so everyone
not on the award lists gets a honorary mention. (Or am I being too negative here?)
Several years ago, in the European Song Contest, Greece did not enter. They
didn't think their semi-finalist was good enough. I liked that: someone there
clearly had a line which it was necessary to pass.
Art does discriminate -- but it's somehow not OK to do that anymore.
In my case, I think I want a bit more of it. I need not agree with it -- but it
certainly would stimulate the mind more than many of the reports I see now.
Several years ago, I had the idea of a judgment tourney, perhaps in conjunction
with a real tourney: once the composers had sent in their problems, anyone
who wanted to compete for the judgment award, would send in their reports, which
would then be judged by ... well, about here the idea broke down. But perhaps the
composers of the judged problems might do? If not, another set of judges. With
one set of awards, of course, to composers and another set to judges.
Perhaps I'm losing track of the topic here, and drifting into some kind of
protest against 'tourney reports for the masses'. But I suspect that without
judges who have opinions and who don't need to apologize for them, we won't have
an 'art of chess composition', but only 'vulgar' problems, in the original sense of the word.
I better submit this before I edit the hell out of it...
| | | (3) Posted by Juraj Lörinc [Monday, Feb 23, 2009 21:33] |
"Problems for the Masses" reminds me of "Music for the Masses", the only album by DM I really liked:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_for_the_Masses
Anyway, for me the problems for the masses, pops, are popular problems, not necessarily great from the artistic point of view, but definitely catching the mind. The personification of this term is for me the well known #4 by Heinz Curth:
http://lorinc.blog.sme.sk/c/61457/Ako-sachovi-skladatelia-lovia-dusicky-napriklad-v-Bristole.html
As regards the judging tourneys, I mistily remember from reading all Rex Multiplexes in my composing beginnings that there had been run something like that in 80s on the meeting of French composers in Fontenay-sous-Bois (?). Somebody older might be able to support the details.
Later, in 2004-2005 I have organized the study of judging.
- a few my preliminary views: http://jurajlorinc.tripod.com/chess/judrefpd.htm
- announcement: http://jurajlorinc.tripod.com/chess/judtes01.htm
- results: http://jurajlorinc.tripod.com/chess/judvys01.htm
It was not a competition, rather a study of approaches, I was mostly interested in arguments used and degree of concordance among judges. Also the two recent WCCTs with join efforts by many judging countries and with explanatory comments is a good demonstration of varying approaches to judging.
| | | (4) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Tuesday, Feb 24, 2009 11:21] |
A problem for the masses should have two or even better all three things:
It should be easy to understand.
It should have a light position.
It should show something amusing.
I always show Werner Keym's famous problem: White has KRR, black has K. Build a position where white can checkmate in four ways.
Or this one by I don't know whom: White has RRS, black has K. Build a position where bK is in the middle of the board but checkmated.
Maybe even the famous Tibor Orban problem. It's easy to reach the position after 1.e4 e6 2.Bb5 c6 3.Bxc6 dxc6, but how does it arrive if exactly four moves were played by both sides?
The Sunyer problem (wKh5 bKe8, retract one move of white and black, then h#1) also is good.
Of course I don't know if that is for the masses, but they like it in my chess club.
| | | (5) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Tuesday, Feb 24, 2009 12:40] |
@Anders: The idea "Who judges the judgemen" appeals to me.
Obviously, the composers should be the judges. I wouldn't be
afraid either to judge or be judged, but of course if this
idea is ever carried out, it's prone to degenerate into a
grudge-fest. Regarding your personal grudge :-), I rather
say that the modern problem became too avantgardistic than
too vulgar. (But I'm biased towards 2#!)
@Juraj: Indeed I was thinking of exactly the Depeche Mode album
when writing the title :-)
@Siegfried: Consider that not *everything* the masses like
is worthless.
So again, can everything be blamed on the simple fact that
there can be no "problems for the mssses" due to the lack
of selfsame masses?
Hauke
| | | (6) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Wednesday, Mar 4, 2009 13:14]; edited by Sarah Hornecker [09-03-05] |
The masses are easily misled by the outer appearance. I conclude they have no sense of aesthetics on their own. As an example, and that's bothering me, even a genius wouldn't be seen if it comes hidden as a poor man. This goes for music, at least. You'd expect Paul Potts* to be easily noticed but another famous person - Joshua Bell - did a test if people would appreciate a concert he'd give for free. They didn't. Is it that we only see what we expect to see or hear?
http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/bell.asp
Maybe there's not even music for the masses.
EDIT:
* = who is in my opinion the only great talent I ever noticed winning a talent show for singers
| | | (7) Posted by Adrian Storisteanu [Wednesday, Mar 4, 2009 14:36] |
And here's the Washington Post article, "Pearls Before Breakfast":
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html
| | | (8) Posted by Jan Hein Verduin [Wednesday, Mar 4, 2009 18:29] |
QUOTE
Or this one by I don't know whom: White has RRS, black has K. Build a position where bK is in the middle of the board but checkmated.
This one is by Sam Loyd (American Chess Journal, 1876). In those days, the convention of a problem position having to be legal wasn't that widely accepted (a problem was thought to be a made up position rather than having occurred in a fictional game), and some of his solvers were less than enthusiastic about problems that had retro elements. Loyd, in his typical fun poking way, then published the problem mentioned above, so that when critics would argue that there's no legal mating move he would simply respond that the position had no past.
| | | (9) Posted by Marjan Kovačević [Thursday, Mar 5, 2009 00:06] |
Thank you, Siegfried and Adrian for this wonderful Washington experiment story! It proves that the more one knows the more he could appreciate the Art. Another positive thing I found was the Pulitzer Prize for this brilliant article from the Washington Post.
| | | (10) Posted by Kevin Begley [Thursday, Mar 5, 2009 01:01]; edited by Kevin Begley [09-03-05] |
Some of the problems quoted (allegedly "for the masses") have, at least in my view, broader appeal. When I think of a problem "for the masses" I tend to think of something that breaks some problem conventions, and thus, appeals much less to problemists (than to chess players).
Case in point:
White wins.
Filipp S. Bondarenko, Feenschach 1960
 (= 3+8 )
The purist will scoff at the promoted units and checking key.
The masses will simply enjoy the merry-go-round.
Note that the masses will not bother to apply their traditional criticism ("position looks too artificial") to this problem, because their instinctual judgement (see also "patzer see check...") is vindicated all through the solution.
In fact, it is quite telling how they contradict themselves in their response to Loyd's "RRSk" problem (suddenly retrograde analysis is their trump card!). Which is not to say that I don't understand the masses -- I was, after all, once one of them!
They want nothing more than the garden of eden -- but without the talking serpent, thankyou very much.
Strip your diagram of all possible checking keys, capturing keys, flight-taking keys, etc -- give them no explicit temptation -- only then will the masses accept, without making a case against the composer, their own solving imperfections.
Otherwise, just accept that their criticism is a natural biological panic-mechanism (not unlike a drowning swimmer).
| | | (11) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Friday, Feb 26, 2010 17:18] |
Talking about music for the masses, this surely is - or maybe not. At least the probably greatest tenor of the past century is shocked himself about his performance...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VATmgtmR5o4
(Sorry for hijacking the thread, but this is such a great piece of art that Pavarotti does that everyone should know about it :-) )
| | | (12) Posted by Joost de Heer [Friday, Feb 26, 2010 20:11]; edited by Joost de Heer [10-02-26] |
-
| | | (13) Posted by Vladimir Tyapkin [Wednesday, Apr 14, 2010 06:25] |
This has no relation to chess. Sorry for an offtopic.
Gene Weingarten, the author of 'Pearls Before Breakfast' cited avove just got another Pulitzer Prize for this infinitely sad story.
Fatal Distraction: Forgetting a Child in the Backseat of a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/27/AR2009022701549_pf.html
| | | (14) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Wednesday, Apr 11, 2012 10:30]; edited by Sarah Hornecker [12-04-13] |
With the tasteless "art" that is shown permanently in our city - a painting "Industrie" that looks like a MS paint accident, a spit out chewing gum statue - and temporarily in the museum - Pablo Picasso, that gravedigger of modern art - I would say that everyone in this city is manipulated except me. At least I am the only one to loudly complain about this "art"!
And no, THIS is not art.
http://www.boisseree.com/images/artists/Picasso/Picasso_B_1063.jpg
And THIS is also not art.
http://www.diesseits.de/sites/diesseits.de/files/imagecache/large/images/drop-heidenheim.jpg
Just showing those things in our city without anyone complaining shows that people are brainless masses. And some experiments, like by Ron Jones, also confirm that. Just look it up how easy people are manipulatable. Tell them this or that and sound like an authority and they believe it.
Note: improper word used twice in this post removed by Administrator; if you have to use any please try to find less expressive alternatives!
Reply: Okay, I did so and replaced it by "art". Which is much the same but lacks the analogy of where to drain it. Siegfried.
PS: Why is it not art? For Picasso, because it lacks any artistic content. A picture per se is not art. And an intention that is a mystery to all but the author is also not art.
And the other thing? Do you think there is any art involved in making a random thing into a statue? No, there is not! It is just an overwhelming will of the author to get something published, no matter how low he gets himself.
Art for the masses? No, there is not, as that would be art for sheep without a shepherd.
Another PS: This is comparable to the "Industrie" thing. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who%E2%80%99s_Afraid_of_Red,_Yellow_and_Blue
| | | (15) Posted by Olaf Jenkner [Friday, Apr 13, 2012 00:50] |
Back to Hauke's question:
In Germany kitsch has one name: Peter Krystufek.
He is a well known plagiarist. Many of his plagiarisms are problems with added useless pieces. Perhaps he likes the position more "romanticly".
Good problems for the masses made for instance Fritz Giegold.
I do my best, in may-issue of Schach will be published a nice example, if there is interest I can show it in this forum.
Olaf
| | | (16) Posted by seetharaman kalyan [Friday, Apr 13, 2012 22:16] |
Masses - what is the definition ?
Chess players or solvers who do not compose.
| | | (17) Posted by Dejan Glisić [Saturday, Apr 14, 2012 00:12] |
Olaf, please show us your problem!
| | | (18) Posted by Uri Avner [Saturday, Apr 14, 2012 05:21]; edited by Uri Avner [12-04-14] |
@ Siegfried
Lately I had the surprising realization of how easy it is to mislead (seemingly) intelligent people. I'll spare myself the misery of getting into it here.
However, about the Picasso painting, just to say, emotionally, that it is not "art" isn't enough. It may be obvious to you, but Picasso was a superb Grandmaster and you'll get a hard time trying to explain WHY this specific painting is, objectively, not "art".
| | | (19) Posted by Sarah Hornecker [Saturday, Apr 14, 2012 13:00] |
Rather Picasso should rise from the grave and explain us why a deformed face is art. Or why such pseudo-abstract paintings are art. But I admit there is at least some work in it, which I can't say about the other two examples.
| | | (20) Posted by Hauke Reddmann [Saturday, Apr 14, 2012 15:45] |
Meh. Siegfried, I make Picasso coming back from his grave
as a zombie (happens all the time now), or maybe I invent
a time machine instead (less messy) for the same purpose,
if YOU pick a random piece of art and explain why it is art...
but resorting only to (I'm fair) intersubjectively agreeable
measurements. I.e. so even a tentacled monster of Alpha Centauri
can understand it. Good luck :P
Hauke
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