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| (1) Posted by Dupont Nicolas [Tuesday, Oct 10, 2017 20:03] |
Ask for a particular Popeye sstip
I would like to know if Popeye admits a sstip able to code a black series followed by two white moves, the first one being defensive. I mean after the black series, each white pre-terminal move allows white to then reach the goal at its terminal move.
Might someone help?
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| (2) Posted by Joost de Heer [Wednesday, Oct 11, 2017 10:36] |
That can be done without sstip: 'stip 8->ser-#2' is 8 black moves, then 2 white moves, white giving mate with his second.
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| (3) Posted by Dupont Nicolas [Wednesday, Oct 11, 2017 16:34] |
In your setting the first white move is help Joost - I need a defensive one! Maybe an example should clarify what I'm looking for:
W: Pa3a7c3 B: Sg4
4B & 2W x
Defensive first white move
1.Se5 2.Sc6 3.Sxa7 4.Sb5 & 1.a4 2.axb5 x
1.Se5 2.Sc6 3.Sxa7 4.Sb5 & 1.c4 2.cxb5 x
Each (and not some) first white move allows white to then reach the goal.
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| (4) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Wednesday, Oct 11, 2017 18:45] |
This looks like a color-reversed reflex stipulation, e.g.:
White Bg6 Pe4 Pa2 Ka1
Black Bb8 Kc7
Stipulation r#2
1.e5! ~ 2.Bb1 Bxe5/Bd4 #
Just stipulate somehow first the white series and then the black series.
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| (5) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Wednesday, Oct 11, 2017 18:45]; edited by Nikola Predrag [17-10-11] |
deleted
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| (6) Posted by Dupont Nicolas [Wednesday, Oct 11, 2017 23:21] |
Sorry but I don't clearly understand the link. Which would be a correct sstip allowing Popeye to provide the expected solution in my above scheme?
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| (7) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Thursday, Oct 12, 2017 01:06]; edited by Nikola Predrag [17-10-12] |
I don't know about "sstip" or any "less usual" options. But if you know how to stipulate a series of 4 white moves followed by a series of 2 black moves (hypothetically "4W & 2B x"), the trouble is still how to stipulate that Black would try to play against the goal in his 1st move and then willingly fulfill it in his 2nd move.
"r 4W & 2B x" should solve your scheme in the inverted position W:Sg5 B:Pa2,a6,c6
r="reflex" applied to the complete play would allow Black to refute if bPa2 is not captured, e.g. 1-4.Se4-f2?-d3-b4 & 1.a1~! 2.~
Probably you have a more delicate case in mind.
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| (8) Posted by Dupont Nicolas [Thursday, Oct 12, 2017 04:30] |
Yes of course I need a sstip which is always working. Keeping your 4W & 2B x framework, the new scheme
W: Bc1 Sd3 Pd2 B: Pa6e6h5
4W & 2B x
Defensive first black move
is admitting a unique solution (if I’m not mistaken):
1.Sb4 2.d4 3.Bf4 4.Bg3
And now black is somehow squeezed – whatever is its first move, black may capture at the next. I don't see how using a reflex trick here. I though about the possibility of changing 4W & 2B x into 4W & 1B G, which is nothing but a classic self series ser-sG4 with unusual goal G = "each move allows a next x", but I don't mind such a goal is programmed or is possible to code with a sstip...
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| (9) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Thursday, Oct 12, 2017 15:04] |
In the new scheme after 1.Sb4, reflex would force 2.Sxa6, but semi-reflex wouldn't.
The trick with "reflex" is to stipulate the fulfillment of a goal in the end, despite opposing it previously.
The nature of what you want looks as a kind of "self-help" - White's play (m moves) FORCES Black to reach (in n-1 moves) a position in which Black would HELPFULLY fulfill the goal by his last, n-th move. "Reflex" should be activated at least (or only) for that n-th move.
"Reflexive fulfillment in one move after opposing" - is this what you want, in principle?
Anyway, I can use Popeye only for the most usual stipulations, so there's not much practical use of my reasoning :-(
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| (10) Posted by Dupont Nicolas [Thursday, Oct 12, 2017 16:35] |
Your post made me laugh, Nikola! Indeed the series genre illustrated by the scheme above is part of a family of new series genres I invented, among them standing the "self-help" one! (an article is in preparation).
The well-known help-self series is of the form BBBB WB where after SOME white move, EACH black move is reaching the goal. I reverse everything to get the self-help series: it is of the form WWWW BW where after EACH black move, SOME white move is reaching the goal.
Btw it is possible (and I know how to do it) to code self-help series with a Popeye sstip, so they are checkable - a fundamental point of course. What I don't know is how to code such a series when the white terminal move is replaced by a black one (how to do it is the subject of this thread)...
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| (11) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Thursday, Oct 12, 2017 17:12] |
I don't understand where is "help" in WWWW BW sequence if Black has no counter-goal choice in his only move.
"-self-" means that Black will play the last move and complete the stipulated end, despite opposing it whenever possible.
"self" combined with "help" should mean that Black would sometimes oppose and sometimes help, but always playing the last move.
WWWW & BW # is a series of 3 white moves and then #2, no "self" or "help" in it.
What am I missing?
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| (12) Posted by Dupont Nicolas [Thursday, Oct 12, 2017 18:13] |
Nothing - it is true that a ser-sh# in N+1 moves is exactly a direct series in N moves followed by a direct #2. The name "self-help" comes from a general picture which will be explained in the article (for obvious reasons I don't want to say too much here).
Btw I didn't find in the literature an illustration of such kind of series, do you know some? Winchloe seems to don’t support a stipulation like “N white moves and then a Direct”.
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| (13) Posted by Nikola Predrag [Thursday, Oct 12, 2017 19:32] |
I know nothing about such series. I think that Winchloe (I don't have it) can now activate a completely new condition for the very last move. Such possibility was added in May, for Belgrade festival.
Activating "reflex" only for the last move could change the opposing play into the apparent "help" in the very end.
But the issue of W+B series is out of my reach.
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| (14) Posted by seetharaman kalyan [Thursday, Oct 12, 2017 19:32] |
I think Winchloe has introduced a facility like that recently. Please check up.
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| (15) Posted by Dupont Nicolas [Thursday, Oct 12, 2017 21:58] |
I asked Christian Poisson - WinChloe is still unable to check the above schemes. So my only hope is that Popeye is able to (but how?) or to ask for a specific programming. But before that I want of course to be sure there is no already existing method.
Btw I wonder why nobody had the idea to allow some white move(s) before a #2, in order to increase the number of positions admitting a solution... Is it a so stupid idea?
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| (16) Posted by Dominique Forlot [Friday, Oct 13, 2017 01:32]; edited by Dominique Forlot [17-10-13] |
Note: [x] tag found without matching closing [/x] tag!
Nicolas you can use this sstip for your last problem
sstip white 4:4s[1d[-1a[x]d]a] {-!1s[x]}
we obtain this Output:
1.Sd3-b4 2.d2-d4 3.Bc1-g5 4.Bg5-h4 a6-a5 a5*b4 x
1.Sd3-b4 2.d2-d4 3.Bc1-g5 4.Bg5-h4 e6-e5 e5*d4 x
1.Sd3-b4 2.d2-d4 3.Bc1-f4 4.Bf4-g3 h5-h4 h4*g3 x
1.Sd3-b4 2.d2-d4 3.Bc1-f4 4.Bf4-g3 a6-a5 a5*b4 x
1.Sd3-b4 2.d2-d4 3.Bc1-f4 4.Bf4-g3 e6-e5 e5*d4 x
and it's the solution with ...a démolition:
1.Sd3-b4 2.d2-d4 3.Bc1-f4 4.Bf4-g3 ( intention )
1.Sd3-b4 2.d2-d4 3.Bc1-g5 4.Bg5-h4 ( subtile démolition! ( Bg5! no the pawn h5 is stopped/blocked )
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| (17) Posted by Dupont Nicolas [Friday, Oct 13, 2017 02:05] |
Many thanks Dominique! Indeed my solution asked for more than the stipulation - that the moving black pawn is able to capture at its second move, albeit the stipulation is that, after each pawn move, some pawn (not necessarily the same) is able to capture!
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